[mikeylamar]

Graillotion said:

mikeylamar said:

Can anyone comment on the difference in feel when compared to isopropyl myristate.

Squinny mentions that she includes 2% cyclomethicone in her formulas. How much IPM and cyclomethicone is usually added in a formula. I’m thinking about adding 5-10% but I’m not sure if that’s too much.

I use both D5 and IPM together in many formulas.  IPM…I pretty much use a standard procedure of 2%.  (But I use a ton of Isoamyl laurate.)

D5…now that is a whole nother beast.  Also, I do not consider them really even similar, or doing the same thing.  D5 is too unique to lump it in with non-volatile emollients.  You have to experiment…but 2-10% ranges are not uncommon.  Typically where I want just a subtle bump of haptics…2-3% will suffice.  Something that you want rapid drying (sensory)…(for me this was an emulsified deo cream)…the 7-10% range was more appropriate.  BTW…. D5 should also help with soaping.

How do you describe the difference in haptics between the two?

I’m only using one ester so 7-10% sounds reasonable to me. 10% cyclomethicone/ isopropyl myristate, 6% carrier oil, 4% cetyl alcohol and Glyceryl stearate & Peg 100 5%.

As ggpetrov mentioned above, are you making lotions in a vacuum or do you add extra to compensate for evaporation?

[mikeylamar]

Can anyone comment on the difference in feel when compared to isopropyl myristate.

Squinny mentions that she includes 2% cyclomethicone in her formulas. How much IPM and cyclomethicone is usually added in a formula. I’m thinking about adding 5-10% but I’m not sure if that’s too much.

[mikeylamar]

ggpetrov said:

mikeylamar said:

And how wouldnt cyclomethicone evaporate during the heat and hold phase?

You can smell it. The Cyclomethicone has a certain smell, which is pleasant for me. Usually I add it at 45-50 degrees, but I double the amount because of evaporation. Also I am homogenizing it in the emulsion for a few seconds.

How can a chemist be sure of how much cyclomethicone is left in the lotion even if adding extra to compensate for evaporation?

[mikeylamar]

And how wouldnt cyclomethicone evaporate during the heat and hold phase?

[mikeylamar]

Abdullah said:

Adding vegetable oils like sesame oil without antioxidant is not a good idea.

I read that sesame oil has a long shelf life. Does it oxidise quicker when combined into a lotion?

[mikeylamar]

Syl said:

@mikeylamar, a patch test is overkill. When formulating many, including me tend to FOMO, we add untested cool actives. My recommendation is follow the advice above to make a basic lotion you find moisturizing instead of lubricating without actives. Once you are happy with your formulation, add the actives one by one, this way you will know if your actives are causing a problem.

I always thought that the carrier oil was the core moisturising ingredient but I have learnt otherwise.

Abdullah said:

Do you mean that your product doesn’t make a dry skin soft and moist or you mean upon application it doesn’t feel moisturized and moist?

If first one then the only two ingredients in your formula for that purpose is petrolatum and glycerin. I suggest 18% glycerine+ 5% petrolatum. That is enough in oil phase. Also as Graillotion said 1% dimethicone will help too. Mixing humectants is also better than one. I suggest add 2% lactic acid too and adjust pH.
Adding vegetable oils like sesame oil without antioxidant is not a good idea.

If second one then remember this. In o/w emulsion, water is your continues phase so your skin with first feel whatever is in that phase. Then every droplets of oil phase is surrounded by surfactants or emulsifiers so it is emulsifier that will contact your skin. Not the oils. So you will not see much difference between sesame oil vs olive oil in oil phase but you would see a huge difference if you use an emulsifier with oleic or behenic in it. So for feeling moisturized during application or shortly after use an emulsifier with oleic or behenic in it.

About irritation, maybe it is rice but if irritation is not present from the first day then maybe your product is contaminated. 
You don’t have a strong preservative specially for fungi. 

Upon application, my skin does feel moist but not moisturised.

You make an interesting point about the emulsifier! I read that high levels of oleic acid can damage the skin barrier so I should probably try grapeseed oil again with an oleic based emulsifier.

I did read that my preservative is weak to fungi. How did Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate or Dehydroacetic acid & Benzyl alcohol fare?

jemolian said:

@mikeylamar you should be able to find a list of UK sellers from a site like makingskincare or the DIYBeauty sub reddit 

• https://makingskincare.com/cosmetic-ingredient-suppliers/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/DIYBeauty/wiki/suppliers

Seems the more common emulsifier blend for the UK is Vegetal / Montanov 68.

Though if you still prefer to purchase from the same seller, you can consider replacing part of your Cetyl alcohol with small percentages of Carbomer. Note the processing method and ingredients that are electrolytes if you consider the Carbomer. 

What are the properties of carbomers to skin feel and do you recommend a reliable source to find the electrolytes of ingredients.

[mikeylamar]

Pattsi said:

Question - Isn’t your lotion a bit too water thin and then you ended up using it less than you should so you felt it’s not moisturizing enough compare to commercial product? 

The opposite. I usually end more using more to over compensate and I then I just feel lubricated, not moisturised.

Graillotion said:

Why does it lack emollience?  It lacks emollients.  Good emollients have names like isoamyl laurate, laurel laurate, IPM, etc…. I don’t see those in your formula.  There are secondary ones that help… like maybe cetyl palmitate etc.

If you had to tweak my formula and replace an ingredient for something else, what would you swap out. I have seen people mention polymers, esters and silicones but since I haven’t experienced their properties first hand, I don’t know which will be best for me.

[mikeylamar]

Syl said:

If niacinamide exacerbates your ezcema or cause irritation you want to remove it. Dermatitis usually get worse with continued exposure to irritants.

Is niacinamide the most likely irritant here? I would love to try patch test each individual ingredient but I don’t know how I’d even do that.

Rockstargirl said:

I assume your using sesame  oil  for eczema ..but it’s a dry feeling oil. Maybe some squalene and a butter? And a try some different emulsifiers. They make all the difference 

I’ve often avoided oils as they were too greasy for me. Is it just inherent for dry oils to not have long lasting moisturisation or are there any that can.

jemolian said:

Glyceryl stearate & Peg 100 5% 
Cetyl alcohol 4%

Have you considered changing to another emulsifier blend that can thicken by itself? At least to me it seems relatively high in total percentage. 

I purchase most of my ingredients here: https://naturallythinking.com/emulsifiers/?sort=alphaasc&page=1. I don’t think they sell other complete emulsifiers.

Squinny said:

Maybe try smaller batches than 2000 g and see what works best for what you want. I usually only make a batch of 250 g at most for when I’m testing if I like a product for myself. I have found I actually like a body cream better and find them longer lasting and include some butters with the oils like mango butter.
 Also for more slip perhaps add 1 % dimethicone. I make a nice cream for myself with Water phase 77% incl 8% glycerin and use  oil blend of macadamia and MCT along with mango and cocoa butter. For the emulsifier I use Olivem1000 at 5% and use Cetearyl Alc at 2.15% rather than Cetyl (makes for a thinner product for my formula). Also you can add the Niaciniamde in your cooldown stage (apparently you shouldnt use at temps above 70 degrees c. I find it dissloves easy at cooldown.
Or look at the ingredients that Aveeno use and try emulate. Glycerin is 2nd on their list of ingredients so maybe they use at higher % than your 5%. I find I can go to 10% depending on the formulation and doesnt leave my skin greasy. Hope that helps (or maybe makes you more confused!). Cheers

I find it quite hard to source Dimethicone unfortunately. I regret buying hydrolysed rice protein over hydrolysed oats.

Graillotion said:

I’ll probably be redundant with some of the above comments…but here goes.

Why does it lack emollience?  It lacks emollients.  Good emollients have names like isoamyl laurate, laurel laurate, IPM, etc…. I don’t see those in your formula.  There are secondary ones that help… like maybe cetyl palmitate etc.

Out of all the good emollients you mentioned, should I combine multiple emollients together or should one be enough.

Graillotion said:

What does it not fully moisturize?  You only have glycerol working towards that end.  Not all on this forum will agree, but I have found a team of humectants works much better than a single member.  If cost is the only measure of success, then you are on the right path.  So, I would certainly look at adding some team members like propanediol, betaine, urea (especially), sodium lactate, sodium PCA, or many other possible choices.  Every humectant works in a slightly different manner and excels at different humidity levels.  If you have not researched that to the nth degree and determined that only glycerol works in your climate with your skin…then add to the team.

That’s a good point.  When determining the best humectant to use, does my choice mainly depend on the the humidity it functions best in + the climate I live in or are there any additional benefits. I assumed that all humectants had fundamentally had the same function.

Graillotion said:

I can’t imagine the words eczema and dimethicone not being in the same sentence…where is yours?

unable to source during the silicone shortage :[

Graillotion said:

I get the impression you think oils are magical?  They lubricate (NOT the same as moisturize) the skin, and not a whole lot more.  The rest of the build is actually the important aspects.  Humectants and barrier should be more the focus.

That was my confusion. Carrier oils are usually been categorised as an emollient. Especially when people say that oils high in oleic acid are good for softening the skin.

Graillotion said:

If you want to know if the Niacinamide irritates….just mix some in water…and apply to the same select spot for a few days….and you’ll have your answer.

Should I keep the niacinamide at 2% or should I increase the concentration for a more clear result. 

Would there be any point in testing the Allantoin/ rice protein too or are they safe ingredients

[mikeylamar]

grapefruit22 said:

Is your formula fast absorbing? I think the addition of wax or synthetic polymers could help. The polymers are not greasy and form a “film” on the skin, so you should not feel dry after applying them.
Some people experience irritation after using niacinamide.

In comparison to a commercial lotion, no. But if I had to compare to other carrier oils such as soy bean oil, grape seed, sweet almond, hazelnut oil then it’s on the quicker absorbing side.

Which polymers are the most common in lotions?

If I get irritated to niacinamide, is it that my skin needs to get acclimated to it, should I reduce the % or just avoid it outright

[mikeylamar]

Paprik said:

Yeah, stick to 0.5% maximum of Allantoin. This will work pretty good. No point having more of it. Add that to water phase. 
I would not say Niacinamide is pH sensitive. It works great between 3.5 - 7.5 (If I remember correctly). Which you should formulate within this range anyway. Add that in cool down phase though, it is stable in higher temperatures, but you don’t want to accidentally ruin it when you overheat your phase. 

I’m missing an antioxidant for your lipid. Grapeseed oil gets oxidised pretty easily. Also, you are mixing lipids with different polarity. So you double check stability. 

Your preservative is not natural whatsoever (Euxyl PE 9010). It may look more natural if compare with parabens, but it is not. It is pretty robust preservative, however only PET would give you your answer. To me however, it should be fine. 
Add chelating agent to boost it and get the pH close to 4.8.

Regarding protein, check with your supplier. So far I worked with heat stable proteins, so I used them in water phase. 

Hope that helps, happy formulating.

That does help alot! I will now use the niacinamide in my cool down phase. Regarding the oxidizing of the grapeseed oil, I’m aware it has a 3 month shelf life but I’ll probably use it all by then anyways.

ggpetrov said:

Hello. You can go with 0.5% Allantoin. It’s one of those ingredients which works best at smaller concentrations. You should put it in the hot water phase, otherwise it will not dissolve completely. Me personally heat the Allantoin at the 80-85 degrees, and I don’t think it degrades because of that.

I am not sure about the Niacinamide. It’s a tricky ingredient, because it’s a Ph sensitive. Generally it requires a lower Ph. Also if you wish to make your lotion more moisturizing, you can add some glycols or salts, like Sodium lactate or Sodium PCA. I think you fat doesn’t look very nice.

I’m using grapeseed oil this time because it’s relatively light. I’m not sure how moisturising it will be because it doesn’t have the oleic acid but I’ll try it anyways.

[mikeylamar]

Microformulation said:

At >0.5% to 2%, this is an OTC Drug. 0.5% and below is the Cosmetic level.

I don’t plan on selling my lotion, this is for my private use.

[mikeylamar]

Abdullah said:

for its emolliency and slight occlusive benefits in a lotion.

For this reason buy 350 sct or above. 

What is CCC?

You can use anything but nothing is like dimethicone. It will function as skin protectant at 1%. Petroleum at 30% and other emollients at even higher percentage. 

I was referring to the Coco Caprylate/Caprate

[mikeylamar]

Graillotion said:

mikeylamar said:

I have a question regarding silicones, dimethicone
in particular. I want to buy a silicones specifically for skincare lotions.
There are many different types of Dimethicones available and I was wondering
what the differences were between them and which ones are the industry standard
in cosmetic skincare. I wanted to buy Dimethicone 350 or 1000 but it seems like
the global silicone shortage has affected supply.

·        DM350
Dimethicone

·        Dimethicone
1000

·        DM6
Dimethicone

·        Lotioncrafter
EL40

·        Cyclomethicone
(and) Dimethicone – to my understanding Cyclomethicone is mainly used in
haircare as it’s better for rinse off products

Also, how do silicones compare to natural
alternatives such as olive derived ester or something like Coco
Caprylate/Caprate. As it’s naturally derived, will it eventually absorb into
the skin?

Additional question: I have seen niacinamide
supplements sold online for much cheaper. Is it okay to use this type of
niacinamide in skincare products? My concern is that it may contain
nicotinamide, which I don’t know how beneficial this is in skincare.

It would have been helpful…had you stated the purpose of the dimethicone and possible alternatives…. So I’ll try and read your mind…and take a stab at it.

I will assume one of the main things you were trying to accomplish…was to alleviate soaping.  @chemicalmatt is of course spot on…with the Dimethicone 350 as being the ideal choice.  It can do at .3-.5%…what the alternatives will do less well with 5%.  I have gone down that route early on….and there are no true alternatives….just lesser poser’s trying to unthrone the king.

I have found on the ultra lite products I make…even the lite olive type esters…add an unwanted oiliness, and do not add half the haptics that something like Isoamyl Laurate would bring to the formula.

IMHO…cyclomethicone is a beautiful beast unto itself… mix this with the proper polymerics, pentylene glycol…and cyclomethicone…and heaven awaits.  Texturally….feels nothing like dimethicones to me.

Do you have any experience with Coco Caprylate/Caprate and would you recommend this over olive oil type esters or the DM6?

[mikeylamar]

chemicalmatt said:

This topic has been under discussion for decades now, but my opinion  - and the consensus - is that 350cst dimethicone will be the most versatile used for skin care applications, with 100cst the second runner-up. Nothing heavier or lighter such as DM6. Also my opinion here only: nothing matches the attributes of dimethicones. The light esters you note, and CCC is a good one, have a different sensorial outcome and most all of the commercial “silicone substitute” light esters are analogs for cyclomethicone, the least practical of all silicone emollients. D5 cyclics in antiperspirants and hair-care de-frizzers: another story altogether.  Indispensable there.

In my case, I can only shop from lotioncrafter or formulasampleshop. Since I can’t buy 350cst, should I buy CCC instead? If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that the olive oil ester is just a cyclomethicone analog, so it’s not worth buying?

[mikeylamar]

Graillotion said:

mikeylamar said:

I have a question regarding silicones, dimethicone
in particular. I want to buy a silicones specifically for skincare lotions.
There are many different types of Dimethicones available and I was wondering
what the differences were between them and which ones are the industry standard
in cosmetic skincare. I wanted to buy Dimethicone 350 or 1000 but it seems like
the global silicone shortage has affected supply.

·        DM350
Dimethicone

·        Dimethicone
1000

·        DM6
Dimethicone

·        Lotioncrafter
EL40

·        Cyclomethicone
(and) Dimethicone – to my understanding Cyclomethicone is mainly used in
haircare as it’s better for rinse off products

Also, how do silicones compare to natural
alternatives such as olive derived ester or something like Coco
Caprylate/Caprate. As it’s naturally derived, will it eventually absorb into
the skin?

Additional question: I have seen niacinamide
supplements sold online for much cheaper. Is it okay to use this type of
niacinamide in skincare products? My concern is that it may contain
nicotinamide, which I don’t know how beneficial this is in skincare.

It would have been helpful…had you stated the purpose of the dimethicone and possible alternatives…. So I’ll try and read your mind…and take a stab at it.

I will assume one of the main things you were trying to accomplish…was to alleviate soaping.  @chemicalmatt is of course spot on…with the Dimethicone 350 as being the ideal choice.  It can do at .3-.5%…what the alternatives will do less well with 5%.  I have gone down that route early on….and there are no true alternatives….just lesser poser’s trying to unthrone the king.

I have found on the ultra lite products I make…even the lite olive type esters…add an unwanted oiliness, and do not add half the haptics that something like Isoamyl Laurate would bring to the formula.

IMHO…cyclomethicone is a beautiful beast unto itself… mix this with the proper polymerics, pentylene glycol…and cyclomethicone…and heaven awaits.  Texturally….feels nothing like dimethicones to me.

Sorry, I should clarify. I am trying to use Dimethicone for its emolliency and slight occlusive benefits in a lotion.

[mikeylamar]

Bill_Toge said:

sodium metabisulphite is good at slowing down oxidation of vitamin C, and in principle, benzophenone-4 could act as an efficient radical trap for oxygen

(disclaimer: I’ve not actually tried the latter)

I’ll definitely take a look at sodium metabisulphite but ideally I’d add another antioxidant that will synergistically increase the antioxidant affects, not just slow down the oxidation

[mikeylamar]

emma1985 said:

mikeylamar said:

emma1985 said:

No other antioxidants are evidence based for stabilizing C as far as I know.

You don’t really have to make an emulsion, though.

You can use a small amount of Polysorbate, or even something like Olivem 300 to solubilize a small amount of Vitamin E (in Vitamin C serums, E is used at 0.5% or 1%.)

The bigger problem is Ferulic Acid. In my experience it’s almost impossible to solubilize. This is why I’ve personally given up on DIY Vitamin C. I buy commercial formulations that stay stable/unoxidized/effective for a stunning amount of time (the ones I use limit water content and switch out large quantities of water for glycols. That’s the trick.) 

So I probably wont have any luck with plant extracts such as green tea extract, rosemary extract or ginger extract?

What percentage of Vitamin C are you using? If you’re using anything more than 10% (it’s evidence based at 15-20%) you’ll need to raise the pH, not lower it. I use Triethanolamine in my Lactic Acid serum. Aim for 3.5, it’s the least irritating while simultaneously effective and bioavailable. I would not go over 3.5.

 My understanding is green tea extract is almost impossible ro stabilize in cosmetic formulations. 

If you’re making it weekly, especially if you’re reducing water content a bit by replacing water with glycols (if it’s for personal use and you’re not that worried about elegance I would do 10% Glycerin,) then it’ll be fine without another antioxidant.

Give it a try for one week. You’ll know it’s oxidizing if it starts turning yellow.

Sorry for double post.

I will be starting off with 5% and progressively get higher. Yeah I got confused for a second, I will be using citric acid to lower the pH.

You mentioned that green tea extract is also hard to stabilise. Will this be the same for every other plant extract too?

That’s very interesting, I didn’t realise that lowering the water content and using glycerin will increase stability. So I assume that vitamin c retains all of its stability in glycols then. 

[mikeylamar]

Microformulation said:

mikeylamar said:

Microformulation said:

Why Baking Soda?

This will be a DIY serum and the baking soda will be used to lower the PH

Baking soda is never used. There are much better ways to adjust pH. I would seek greater understanding. In addition “Baking Soda” (NaHCO₃) will RAISE you pH, not lower it.

I think I mean citric acid, excuse me

[mikeylamar]

suswang8 said:

mikeylamar said:

MarkBroussard said:

If you are going to be making Vitamin C serum weekly and using it within that week, you really don’t need to worry about stabilizer.  The Vitamin C won’t degrade that quickly to really affect the performance.

I heard on Perry’s podcast that all the vitamin c essentially degrades completely after 8 hours at room temperature.

As I plan on using it underneath my sunscreen, I’d prefer to add another water soluble antioxidant that will also make it more photostable too. 

Is this correct?

I heard him say it on the beauty brains podcast. If I remember correctly, it was episode 236 ”how effective are DIY vitamin C recipes”

[mikeylamar]

emma1985 said:

No other antioxidants are evidence based for stabilizing C as far as I know.

You don’t really have to make an emulsion, though.

You can use a small amount of Polysorbate, or even something like Olivem 300 to solubilize a small amount of Vitamin E (in Vitamin C serums, E is used at 0.5% or 1%.)

The bigger problem is Ferulic Acid. In my experience it’s almost impossible to solubilize. This is why I’ve personally given up on DIY Vitamin C. I buy commercial formulations that stay stable/unoxidized/effective for a stunning amount of time (the ones I use limit water content and switch out large quantities of water for glycols. That’s the trick.) 

So I probably wont have any luck with plant extracts such as green tea extract, rosemary extract or ginger extract?

[mikeylamar]

Microformulation said:

Why Baking Soda?

This will be a DIY serum and the baking soda will be used to lower the PH

[mikeylamar]

I’m not sure how to edit my original post but I copied and pasted the wrong text haha

-
I am trying to create my own basic vitamin c serum that I plan on making weekly. Instead of an emulsion that contains ferulic acid and vitamin e, I want to cut down the ingredient list to 3 - vitamin C, an antioxidant and baking soda. Are there any other water soluble antioxidants that will stabilise the vitamin C for a week.

[mikeylamar]

MarkBroussard said:

If you are going to be making Vitamin C serum weekly and using it within that week, you really don’t need to worry about stabilizer.  The Vitamin C won’t degrade that quickly to really affect the performance.

I heard on Perry’s podcast that all the vitamin c essentially degrades completely after 8 hours at room temperature.

As I plan on using it underneath my sunscreen, I’d prefer to add another water soluble antioxidant that will also make it more photostable too.