mikethair
Forum Replies Created
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For a number of years we have been using:
WARING 18″ HEAVY DUTY IMMERSION BLENDERS (MODEL: WSB65E)
Works well for us in our batches of around 75 L.
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Yes, agree @johnb and @MarkBroussard. Good thing is that we have good results on all the microbial tests to-date (zero fails), including the challenge tests. I will navigate through all of this, apply good science, and come up with a testing protocol that can be defended.
@MarkBroussard have had a win with the Schuelke & Mayr distributor and have ordered a box of these microbial test strips to try out. A quirk of this distributor, however, is that they ship from Europe via sea cargo which takes 3 months, reducing the 9-month shelf life to only 6 months.
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Yes @johnb I agree “..strongly in your interest to get an “approved” statement of what the requirements are..” and that is exactly what I have done.
The response to my question “Can you please provide clear details of the type of microbial testing regime that would be acceptable?” was:
“Hi Dear Dr Mike Thair,
For the microbial testing, Indeed I did not mention it is not necessary, but indeed if we refer to the Annex 1 (as attached), it is a requirement.
It just left to your own risk assesment on how to conduct on microbial limit testing.
For example: What product most likely demonstrate haviest microbial proliferation during production, is that the cosmetics likely cause side effect on human if the viable count is more than the acceptance limit, the nature properties of the products: As if the product itself is a natural antimicrobial agent, etc..
For me personally as a auditor, I wouln’t be too rigid on the concept that every single batch of cosmetics have to do a thorough microbial limit test. It is always good to consider the necessary step and precautions to make sure the cosmetic product is safe and of quality
Hope it helps”Currently, I’m in the process of unpackaging exactly what all this means.
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@Perry why do you say “….this isn’t a proper INCI ingredient list” ?
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Yes @MarkBroussard, exactly the line I am now pursuing. Has been difficult to source these types of strip tests here in Malaysia, and will certainly follow up any local agents for Schuelke & Mayr.
Thanks
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@johnb over the past week I have used the shampoo in Australia and Malaysia and good in both locations. No sign of scum precipitation. The Malaysian supply is probably reasonably soft, but not the Oz water, although it would not be in the very “hard” water category.
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No @johnb did not type this out……used cut & paste !!!
Yes agreed @Bobzchemist it’s a “pretty” list, but having said that, am using this shampoo and it suits my hair well. I guess the “pretty” bit allows the brand to jack up the price.
Thanks for the comments……
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Suffered many years from dry skin, tried everything on the market and never really solved the problem. In 2006 started to experiment with various blends of oils and found the best was Jojoba, Sesame, Olive, Coconut, and Sunflower oil. Worked well for me, and so turned it into a product which now has good sales.
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We make “natural” body wash via saponification of whole plant oils. Agreed, not from a “body wash tree,” but perhaps a bit closer to nature than some of the synthetic surfactants currently in use. For manufacturers like us, the use of the word “natural” differentiates us from the majority using synthetic surfactants. I know the word “natural” is a red flag to you guys, and I understand that.
To the original question “…..they rarely foam and the testers have to pour so much to have a decent foam.” Not a problem we have heard back from customers using our products made via saponification of whole plant oils. The secret is in the choice of oils. Our face wash is made from saponified extra virgin olive oil, and this does foam a bit less than the others, but is our biggest seller under our own brand and other brands we manufacture for. To-date have not had a single customer complaint.
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With the limonene/linalool/geraniol content of EO’s you would need to calculate that these are within limits. I’m not sure that sandalwood, myrrh and bergamot are a good blend, and at 0.5% may be ineffective. I know that Sandalwood is sexy, but in these types of products the fragrance can get “lost.” Suggest you work on the blend, keeping in mind the EO allergen levels, and use a base note to anchor the mid and top notes.
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Hi @g03harte09, we add to our CoA file a document provided by the supplier called a “Certifiacte of Health.” This is issued by their Chamber of Commerce & Industry to certify that the product is manufactured in licensed premises, contain no harmful substances, and is fit for human consumption. Nowhere near your usual CoA but will have to do. To-date, have not been challenged. Besides, the every batch of the final cosmetic product is lab tested as required.
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A fresh COA / micro test for each batch of raw material purchased from a supplier would tend to be very expensive and erode any savings made by purchasing from a food ingredients supplier. We face the same challenges with extra virgin olive oil we purchase from a food ingredients supplier.
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Interesting points @Microformulation. I did not think that Alconox was particularly “organic.” How does an “Organic Material Handling Program” protocol get around this?
Thanks
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Thanks for the responses….very useful.
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he Interestingly enough, we have our own brand that we produce for, but these days 80+% of our business is OEM/Private Label. It was never intended that way, but it pays the bills. We have done zero marketing (wouldn’t know where to start) apart from the usual social media engagement that I do myself.
We turn a lot of enquiries away, and as a small company we only take on what we can manage. What brings business to us is (i) a reputation for integrity, (ii) distinctive product offerings that can be differentiated in the marketplace, (iii) transparency, and (iv) quality.
While not a marketing person myself, from our own experience it would seem that your marketing company could consider building a strategy around the four areas I have identified.
Another personal observation in the marketing arena. I had an opportunity in a mega mall to survey and experience all of the top cosmetics brands in one location (OK, over a massive mall - but easily accessible). Something that struck me is that at the end of the day all the brands are very similar with regards to the in-store shopping experience, and the products themselves. You wonder if many of the brands are using the same contract manufacturer? The only brand that stood out as being different was Aesop.
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@iditech, perhaps a misunderstanding here. When I say “the market is crowded” I meant for cosmetics products generally, not the contract manufacturers. They are not short of work.
Given the large number of products in the marketplace (produced by a much smaller number of manufacturers), and given your lack of knowledge of the marketplace, my point was that it may be a challenge to identify and differentiate the products offered.
I agree with @Perry, a lot of these manufacturers are mediocre, and why not, most are not short of work. Again, another challenge is to get these companies to do something a bit different. My perception is that they are quite happy to churn out the same old stuff.
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Hi @johnb, thanks for this. Do you know if these are in regular use in cosmetic manufacturing labs?
I had in mind that a Rapid Test could be used for each batch of product.
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From my experience as the owner of a cosmetics manufacturing company, the first piece of advice is that the marketplace is VERY crowded. This being the case, you need to differentiate the products you intend to offer from this very crowded marketplace. Given your limited knowledge about the industry, this may be a challenge.
Additionally, why don’t these potential clients just approach manufacturers directly, why do they need you.
A good model for you is Le Labo fragrances. Brilliant marketing, to a point where the brand has a cult following, but they outsource the product development. This is an example, in my opinion, where a middleman can be successful…….i.e they provide brilliant marketing and products.
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A very well balanced view presented by @Perry, and I agree 100%. We are one of those “puny” companies when it comes to sales, and we produce “all natural” products. That’s our niche. We have our brand message, brand story, and get on with what we do.
And as @Perry says, “If you’re only marketing angle is that your products are somehow “safer” than standard products, you very likely won’t be successful.” Not sure how success is measured, but my partner and I own the company, currently have a turnover of 6 figures going on 7. That’s OK for us, and we provide employment to our workforce.
I wouldn’t worry about EWG and obnoxious bloggers. Define your brand, set your ingredient parameters, and get on with it. And as @Perry says, if your products are marketed properly and consumers like them, then you will do OK.
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As a scientist, I certainly agree with @Cagouchick in that “I feel like the voice of scientists is more and more undermined by know-it-alls and people who think they know better. Ignoring the research and data.” But this is nothing new, the erosion has been going on for years. In Australia it was difficult for me to earn a living as a scientist, and many escaped overseas (including me). Today we are shouted down by twits.
A core problem is that the general public does not understand the scientific method. It takes some time for a scientific fact to be established, and in this process not all scientists will agree, and there may be conflicting research. In not understanding how science works, this undermines our value in the eyes of the public, and provides opportunities for quacks.
How have I coped? We just do our best, ignore the crap around us, and get on with it, trying not be angered by the deception of many brands. Probably not the best for our bottom line, but I do sleep very well at night.
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Depends on what you want to do with it. We produce potassium cocoate by saponifying coconut oil with KOH which produces a liquid. This allows us to choose the coconut oil type and grade. Sometimes it is extra virgin coconut oil, other times crude coconut oil, depending on the product we are producing and the target market.
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Good luck with this @Belassi clicked on the link, but too late. Nominations closed.
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Thanks @Bill_Toge @crisbaysauli @Belassi I feel a bit more confident now.
Issue is that these GMP cosmetics inspectors are all pharmacists and inspect my place as they would for a top-end sterile pharmaceuticals manufacturer.
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No, you are “not missing anything,” and it’s just the marketplace these days. There are the types of issues you highlight here, and now a tendency for some cosmetics to “cure every ailment known to mankind.” I’m just simply amazed at what companies can get away with. Yes, maddening.
This focus you have described above consumes a lot of energy, and I wonder if it is helping your brand?
I follow the advice of @chickenskin …..focus on your own products, define your niche, develop the brand message, be honest, and forget about these ratbag competitors.
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The definition of “puffery” :
In law, puffery is a promotional statement or claim that expresses subjective rather than objective views, which no “reasonable person” would take literally.
In reality, there appears to be a lot of people that do in fact swallow this nonsense. I wonder who a “reasonable person” is these days.