[mikethair]

[mikethair]

And if you’re a new brand one of these guys might buy you up if you get big enough.

Yes, indeed. This happened to Le Labo, founded in 2006 by a couple of French guy who initially had trouble attracting investors who just couldn’t get fired up with the business plan. So they went ahead on their own.

In 2014 they were purchased by Estée Lauder. Worry now is with this corporate backing, Le Labo will lose its indie appeal and all the exclusive qualities that made it. I guess time will tell.

We have had approaches, but I’m simply not interested. Love making things and not having others telling me what to do.

[mikethair]

I see a lot of ingredients labels these days that look like this….just list the sexy stuff, drop the other ingredients. I wonder how they get passed the cosmetics authorities. 

[mikethair]

deannaji said:

Hi everyone,

I have a question about starting a new cosmetic production line (from home, for starter). Do I need to be cleared by HDA, FDA or any other organizations if Iam planning to sell online. I do line in CA, US.

Cheers!

It can be done, but you need to be realistic and have a plan. I started out working on a few recipes using a corner in the premises of another business. When things started to look promising I took over the premises, hired staff, and then worked on the GMP, and product registration with the cosmetics authorities, etc etc.

As things progressed, we then moved country where we had better international air and sea shipping facilities. And again built a premises that is GMP and Halal Certified.

In my experience, starting at home is a good starting place. If you see potential, then you MUST be prepared to invest in proper GMP facilities and the required staff. Yes, GMP id expensive, and you need the staff. NEVER expand too much without the GMP facilities. If you do, it can turn into a disaster if you are caught. 

Follow your dreams. I did, and you can read about it here: https://indochinenatural.com/the-indochine-natural-brand-story/

[mikethair]

Microformulation said:

Honestly, under cGMP standards you should have a separate space for Cosmetic manufacturing, to start. I would recommend using a manufacturer and dedicating my time to brand management. A Cosmetic Manufacturing Facility and a Cosmetic Line are very different Business models and it is not sustainable to do both over time.

Agree 100%. We started as a brand manufacturing our own products, and within a short time we were doing 80-90% OEM/Private Label. Our own brand suffered as a result.

If we were to do it again, a clear decision would be made. Do we want a production facility, or our own brand? Make the decision. Then stick to it. 

[mikethair]

ngarayeva001 said:

The ‘Dermatology Times’ in blue is a link to the article.

OK, got it. Thanks

Have looked at this article. In my opinion ‘Dermatology Times’ does not appear to be a legitimate scientific journal. After 40 years as a scientist, I have a fair idea of what a scientific paper looks like.

Have I missed anything? It’s always possible.

[mikethair]

Belassi said:

Not ‘described by’ me. It was a Dermatology Times article.

We scientists reference sources, its the professional thing to do. I think you should do the same @Belassi .  This will allow us to make a proper assessment of the paper.

[mikethair]

ngarayeva001 said:

There always will be people who prefer soap. I think it is an outdated technology though.

We make and sell a lot of traditional cold-process soap. Outdated maybe, but it sells. Is there any other reason to make new or old technology soap?

Agreed, its a niche market.

Effects of long term use? For me 30+ years. Plus thousands of customers. No one is compaining of the symptoms described by @Belassi

[mikethair]

We purchase from these guys:

https://soapequipment.com/Tanks/

Very happy with the equipment, their service, and help.

[mikethair]

formul8101 said:

Is it necessary to have Preservative Challenge Tests done on products with physiochemical factors that would make them low risk according to ISO 29621 i.e. a pH > 10 or Aw < 0.75 ? 

In my opinion just good practice to do Challenge test for the formulation, then all bases covered.

[mikethair]

Crikey, our manufacturing is based in a developing country and the cosmetics compliance would never allow us to produce this legitimately. I thought Amazon was vetting cosmetics these days? How do they get away with it?

[mikethair]

Perry said:

I’d say the problem is using old technology like soap when you could be using better technology like less harsh surfactants.. 

With great respect Perry, our business is built on cold process bar soap and liquid soap. Our certified GMP & Halal production facility is designed to produce old fashioned soap. We have our own brand, and 90+ % of our business is manufacturing for other brands locally and internationally.  There is consumer demand for these products. If there wasn’t, we would not have invested the money we have to-date.

The pH of our products is around 9.5 - 10. No complaints from customers. That pH should be below 8 is rubbish. Check out this table here of soap pH, includes both syndets and soap.

[mikethair]

“They are asking of 15% ownership“….for that I would be setting some clearly defined and quantified sales outcomes as a result of their marketing activities. In my experience to date, a lot of there marketing characters steer well clear of measureable marketing outcomes.

We have one of our private label customers asking to buy a stake in our production facilility business. The difference here is that they are “buying” shares. 

[mikethair]

When you say “a stake in my business” do you mean they will buy shares? If so, what percentage of the total shares are they asking for?

[mikethair]

Interesting figures @Belassi  OK, as a manufacturer who sells wholesale, what numbers would you suggest?

[mikethair]

We do a lot of liqiud soap the classic way (oil + KOH). In response to some of the comments:

“the foam is not that rich” - different oils have different characteristics and level of foam. For example olive oil = low foam, coconut oil = high foam. We blend a few oils to get the characteristics we want.

“the pH is only reduced up to 9.” - ours are usually around 9.5 and we do not adjust with citric acid etc. Bring the pH down too far and you may then need to consider using a preservative. Will also tend to cause some seperation.

“Classsic soaps are drying.” - a sign of poor saponification methods/calculation. Our customers say different. With many recipes we super-fat.

” it is not a stable product.” - not in our experience. As part of our compliance requirement we retain product samples. After 4-5 years, products are still OK.

“the traditional way- is that my clients want a natural (as far as it gets) liquid soap.” - our experience exactly. We also produce for other brands as well./

“You can give your clients an inferior product based on tradition” - then I wonder why this inferior product is in such high demand. I will add however, this tradition is not easy.

[mikethair]

We make soap, so I guess my opinions will be dismissed. Anyway, my tuppence worth.

(1) I’m old scientist guy (pushing my 70’s) and in my time there was credible published research supporting the typers of claims made by Vermont Soap. This research is old, and has not been digitalised, so you will not find it on scientific literature databases. (wow, that now totally discredits me)

(2) You may be surprised at the pH of many commercial soaps as shown in this extract below. We make cold process soap and they are usually around pH 9.5.

(3) Old science: (i) a higher pH with soap facilitates the cleaning process (you know, one end attracts water, the other end dirt), (ii) the mantle regains its normal pH fairly quickly, and (iii) no long-term affects of high pH soap with normal skin. I have seen recent published research covering (ii) and (iii).

(4) The higher pH does not require preservatives to be used, see ISO 29621 Low microbial risk cosmetics

(5) So where does that leave me? We produce cold process soap for our own brand and other brands, and it sells well. These products have large long-established customer bases. The demand is there, so we keep producing.

[mikethair]

We have low MOQs, however our location on Penang Island, Malaysia, may be a challenge depending on where you are located.

Our production facility is certified GMP, and we specialisein natural formulations.

[mikethair]

If you are using a contract manufacturer, shouldn’t they be doing the lab tests before releasing the product?

[mikethair]

What are the particular challenges you face that necessitates software tools?

[mikethair]

At Indochine Natural we use essential oils exclusively for our own product line. Plus, we use EO’s in all of our OEM/Private Label formulations which is about 95% of our production, both local and international. This part of our business has overtaken production for our own brand. The products produced for both local and internatioal brands are all top-end price range and include face wash, body wash, shampoo, hair conditioner, soap, face/body oils etc.

The list includes: Aniseed, Basil Sweet CT Chavicol, Bergamot, Cedarwood Virginian, Cinnamon Bark, Clary Sage, Clove Bud, Copaiba Balsam, Eucalyptus Blue Gum, Geranium Bourbon, Grapefruit, Lavender Ang x Lat, Lemon, Lemongrass, May Chang oil (Litsea cubeba), Orange Sweet, Patchouli, Peppermint, Rosemary CT Cineole, Vetiver, Ylang Ylang. There ae others at well.

In 40 years of formulating, I have ever only used essential oils.

[mikethair]

Quite a good summary here on essential oil reserch

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fc4d/01f20b689f5f3c19d747c2bda4f256865b81.pdf

[mikethair]

Thanks @EVchem …… in the process of contacting  schulke technical.

[mikethair]

Hi @sven  we are using https://www.schuelke.com/intl-en/products/mikrocount-duo.php

Highly recommended.

[mikethair]

With respect @Belassi are you telling me that the manufacturer of the microbiol test has got the test units wrong? Attached here is a photo of the units used by the test manufacturer, and they use cm2.