[mikethair]

And we take a completely different approach. We saponify coconut oil. It produces a popular shampoo that we market under our own brand, plus we Private Label to local and international brands.

For many customers, it works. And they have been regular buyers for 10+ years.

[mikethair]

It’s the specific gravity issue that requires us to calibrate the container to be used by the customer before calculating the batch size and pricing.

We use grams as the unit of measurement.

And fluid ounces, a measure of volume…..no thanks. A PIA.

[mikethair]

Yes, I agree. This does not follow normal business practices.

However, having said that the onus is on you to have some agreement in hand before making a payment. And the agreement should include the deliverables and proposed timeline.

Did you have an agreement?

We provide formulation services, and providing a simple agreement is certainly our practice.

[mikethair]

In our case, we price based on the ingredient costs with a healthy margin to cover all costs including our premises and labour costs, plus a profit margin.

We would not differentiate between who paid the IP cost, and just straight private label filling. In both cases, you need to cover your manufacturing costs and make a profit.

And a question. How did you arrive at a cost of $8,000 for the formulations?

[mikethair]

In my opinion, while the contract is important, in our case we also make sure that all bases are covered in terms of our manufacturing. In our case, we are GMP Certified and audited. This provides a lot of protection.

You can have the best contract in the world, but you remain exposed if you don’t have the manufacturing quality side of things certified.

[mikethair]

We purchase hydrosols without preservatives, and on arrival at our production facility, they are tested in our microbial lab. And again, before the product is released to consumers.

We buy another ingredient from a different company that has preservatives added (it’s Floral Water). More often than not it arrives with a high microbial count. They say there are issues with their RO water.

I don’t take any notice of marketing hype from ingredient sellers.

[mikethair]

Yes, a lot of BS on pH with skincare.

And here is my spin on the issue:

https://indochinenatural.com/ph-balanced-skin-and-hair-products/

[mikethair]

We do the standard Stability Test at 45ºC for three months (in an incubator). Then our QC Manager uses retained samples for Real Time testing. Every month she will monitor and record data from some basic lab tests plus organoleptic tests. We now have data from 10+ years of testing.

In all cases, the Rapid Stability testing has been 100% accurate.  And for some of the brands we manufacture for, we have been able to extend the use-by-dates where necessary,

[mikethair]

Yep, significant issues. After delays, we have two shipments in the air right now with FedEx from two different suppliers. In this part of the world, they will come via China, and usually, they would e there just 3-4 hours. In recent times this has stretched to 3-4 days.

[mikethair]

Then within the context of your post, I’m really left field and outside the box….. we saponify plant oils to make soap. Yep, these products of the saponification reaction break surface tension effectively, and are not named dimethicone.

[mikethair]

I have a science degree, MSc and PhD….. and have been formulating for my own brand and other brands for around 20 years. I call myself a Master Formulator. As @Perry says, call yourself whatever you like, but I think you must be comfortable with it.

[mikethair]

I have used Ohaus for many years, and have found their balances robust and straightforward to use.

As we operate a GMP Certified manufacturing facility, we have them calibrated annually by a certified company.

[mikethair]

PhilGeis said:

I’d not count on dip slides beyind water testing for anything beyond hygiene monitoring, hobby and presumptive testing. 

We have used Schuelke Mikrocount in our GMP Certified production facility for years. But they need to be used intelligently.

PET/Challenge Tests are done in an external, certified lab. Regularly, the Schuelke Mikrocount results are validated with samples being sent to an external certified lab.

Over the five years we have used Schuelke Mikrocount they have not let us down. But again, this outside validation of results is an important part of our regime.

[mikethair]

Cosmetic_Chemist said:

We usually do not share the suppliers but we do include trade names with the INCI so that they know which ingredients were a blend. 

I think it can be as much detail as you want or as little detail you want to provide. As long as they have enough information to recreate the product. 

You can send them just the formula, INCI, spec sheets and manufacturing procedure and call it a day. 

Yes agreed Cosmetic_Chemist . And I guess the info required very much depends on the buyer, where they are located, and the relevant cosmetic compliance requirements.

[mikethair]

Perry said:

If I were buying a formula, I would want the following.

• Ingredient percentages
• Ingredient names & suppliers
• Ingredient specifications
• Manufacturing procedure (including specific equipment types used)
• Final product specifications
• Packaging specification (if there are any)
• Test data and procedures (including any claims & how they are supported)
• MSDS
• All info needed for EU product dossier

I don’t imagine everyone selling formulas would want to provide this though.

Lol, that’s being realistic. Thanks Perry

[mikethair]

oneway said:

mikethair said:

MarkBroussard said:

The manufacturing of water sold in supermarkets is highly regulated and the water undergoes extensive testing.  The likelihood that you will encounter a contaminated container of distilled water on the supermarket shelves is extremely low.

A common perception. But not in our experience. We test this water in our microbial lab, and occasionally we detect contaminated batches. Returned two bottles just the other week.

Some years ago I was asked to do a consultancy for one of the largest bottled water suppliers in Australia. My initial evaluation revealed inadequately qualified and trained  QC and laboratory staff, and vastly inadequate lab equipment and water testing protocols. This experience shattered my assumptions about the bottled water industry.

I have a small home-based lab. Can you recommend an affordable testing kit for water? Thanks in advance.

Hi @oneway

In our labs we use the following across in-process testing and in our lab.:

Ohaus Starter 3100 pH meter.

PC 60 pH/cond/TDS/Sal.

Tuttnauer autoclave

mikrocount combi dipslides

[mikethair]

Thanks, @MarkBroussard this makes a lot of sense.

Of course, the key is what to charge for the IP. Are there any generally accepted fee rates for formulations?

[mikethair]

Thanks   @MarkBroussard    and  @Microformulation

[mikethair]

Thanks. Good advice.

[mikethair]

MarkBroussard said:

The manufacturing of water sold in supermarkets is highly regulated and the water undergoes extensive testing.  The likelihood that you will encounter a contaminated container of distilled water on the supermarket shelves is extremely low.

A common perception. But not in our experience. We test this water in our microbial lab, and occasionally we detect contaminated batches. Returned two bottles just the other week.

Some years ago I was asked to do a consultancy for one of the largest bottled water suppliers in Australia. My initial evaluation revealed inadequately qualified and trained  QC and laboratory staff, and vastly inadequate lab equipment and water testing protocols. This experience shattered my assumptions about the bottled water industry.

[mikethair]

Ilsme said:

Graillotion said:

mikethair said:

The allergens analysis in a CoA is important.

Help me learn…as I use some EO’s in a certain project.  When you say allergen analysis in a CofA…. I have not seen such wording.

I will paste an example below…from my supplier.  Does that mean that the TWO items that are listed, those are the probable allergens of the the 67 constituents in that EO?

If so, I did not know that before.

In EU there is a list of 26 allergens you have to declare on LOI if the product contains more then 0,01% (in leave on). I normaly ask for a List of allergens separately cause not all companies put it on the CoA.
I´m not sure why Eugenol is listed twice there on your CoA. To my knowledge Beta Carophyllene is not listed as allergen yet.

The Eugenol is not listed twice. The 60 - 95% is the expected range of results, and the 74.70% is the measured result.

Sometimes it’s a case of the blind leading the blind. Customers who don’t understand these documents, and the same applies to ingredient suppliers.

[mikethair]

In the hands of a skilled formulator who knows and understands essential oils, I would rate them as safe.

Also, sourcing plays an important role, as do proper CoAs, and a formulator who understands the information provide. The allergens analysis in a CoA is important.

The fact is that EOs have been around a long time, and are well documented in the scientific literature.

And the alternatives? Synthetic fragrances.

[mikethair]

We buy branded Reverse Osmosis water in 18 L containers. Every batch goes through our on-site labs for testing, including TDS, pH and microbial testing. Every now and again our lab rejects a batch.

[mikethair]

Why not just use oils?

[mikethair]

Perry said:

6. They must believe their own BS.  This is probably the most important factor and one of the reasons there aren’t more successful brands created by chemists/scientists. A marketers has to really believe in what they are selling. A chemist wants to believe in what is true. Often, the truth is an impediment to marketing a product.  

On point…. I fall into the scientist camp, and yes, absolutely can be an impediment to marketing. But I try to turn the truth into a plus for marketing, but it ain’t easy.