mikethair
Forum Replies Created
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I have been formulating products for many years, including shampoo bars. We were manufacturing shampoo bars for our own brand, plus Private Label brands globally. With the current focus on plastic waste, shampoo bars can be a good seller.
You have done only four test bars? Crikey, with my first bars it took me a year to finally get a formulation to where I want it. Now, with the basic shampoo bar formulation perfected, it’s a lot quicker when I formulate Private Label orders taking into account the client’s requirements.
And with soap, you have the added complication of cure time. In our case, we cure soap bars for 30 days in a controlled temperature and humidity in a purpose-built cure room. And at the end of curing, we then test the bars. The quality of curing can impact significantly on any type of soap bar, including shampoo bars.
Also, for every test batch I record all data in Excel including the Batch Manufacturing Records (BMR). And it is these records that become important in soap bar testing and re-formulating.
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We were producing a lot of this and exporting to various countries, including the US and Europe.
The INCI included:
For solid soap bars: sodium cocoate (coconut oil)
For liquids: potassium cocoate (coconut oil)
Over a period we never had any problems
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I’m an Aussie living in the tropics, so I come up against this issue constantly.
Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some – is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.
I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
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Counter-intuitive to most, common sense to some
– is that a good face oil blend can do wonders for dry skin. And I prefer these over lotions and creams.I have been formulating and manufacturing for 20 years, and a well-formulated face oil has done wonders for the sales of my Private Label customers. In recent times it has become a high-demand product, outselling lotions/creams full of preservatives and synthetics.
And this is the prime advantage of a well-formulated face oil. You will not find fillers and other gunk that can complicate and aggravate your skin.
And I will usually formulate a number of oils in the product, depending on my client’s requirements. A single oil often does not come up to the mark.
A well-formulated face oil absorbs quickly and evenly into your skin, smoothing patchy skin. And when blending, and depending on my client’s requirements, I will formulate essential oils into the blend. For example, to convey a sense of well-being.
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Yes, I have access.
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I can’t find your FB group THESKYN Majlis. Would be a good start if your group was easily visible.
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In the cosmetics compliance system I worked within the NaOH would be a red flag at the product registration/notification stage.
From a consumer perspective, it would not be attractive as an ingredient.
Suggest you look at altenatives.
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I have used CO2 Extracts in the past, and I find them very useful. But you will need to be an experienced formulator to make them work.
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I don’t see anything “natural” in this formulation.
We took a different approach…..saponified plant oils to produce a hand wash. And the advantages included that there was no need for preservatives as the formulation was self-preserving. We manufactured under certified GMP conditions and all microbial tests were met.
And the product was very kind to the skin, with none of the issues you have described.
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Must agree….this is amazingly stupid.
But my question is. If they are producing under GMP Certificated conditions, why aren’t these formulations and supporting Challenge Tests not picked up during GMP audits? In our case, it certainly would be.
My only assumption, therefore, is that this company not producing under GMP Certificated conditions.
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Has Dr Bronner’s brand got it all wrong?
I discovered Dr Bronner’s brand after we started producing our own saponified liquid products. And immediately saw the parallels.
The main ingredients of Dr Bronner’s products are vegetable oils, lye (NaOH or KOH), and essential oils. So, the same as us.
Founded in the U.S. in 1948, Dr Bronner’s is the top-selling natural brand of soap in North America and a leading brand worldwide.
Dr Bronner’s generated nearly $170 million in revenue in 2021 and donated an estimated one third of profits to activist and charitable efforts. A bottle of Dr Bronner’s soap was sold, on average, every 1.7 seconds last year, and a bar of Dr Bronner’s soap was sold every 2.8 seconds.
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I’m easy, whatever suits you.
Kind regards,
Mike
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I guess as a scientist I have a more critical eye than most when reviewing published papers. I note that the paper you have cited here by Brannan et.al is in fact written by P&G staff. While an interesting paper, it could never be considered as a critical, unbiased review of the correlation between in vito challenge testing with consumer testing for cosmetics.
Are you aware of any subsequent published papers reviewing these findings by Brannan et.al?
I also note that preservative adequacy was tested independently of container design. As we are all aware, container design is a big factor in protecting consumer skin care products.
And if container design provides adequate protection, even poorly preserved products would not be contaminated by consumer use. This aspect was not investigated.
And the final sentence “Additional studies are needed to assess these effects.” Yes, indeed. Have there been any additional studies?
In my opinion, while there is some merit in these findings by Brannan et.al, more work is required. Especially in determining the practicalities for manufacturers in adopting revised testing methods.
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In essence, you have not answered my question “what data are you looking for?”
For your information, we follow The EU Cosmetics Regulation and to date have not had any issues selling our products in the EU. The EU Safety Assessment Officer was happy with our data.
And our Certified GMP Compliance requires us to keep retained samples for two (2) years beyond expiry at ambient temperatures. We are in the tropics, so this pushes products to their limits.
And in our two in-house labs (physical chem lab and microbial lab) our Quality Manager would conduct ongoing lab tests every month (for two (2) years beyond expiry at ambient temperatures). This, in our opinion, provides a reasonable assessment of our products to be safe for human health when applied under normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use.
And of course, there are our customers. If they detect product issues, we are easily contactable. To date, over 10+ years has never happened.
<div>OK, then what would you suggest as an alternative?</div><div>
Are you a manufacturer conforming to GMP Compliance, and placing products successfully in the EU market?
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When you say “Consumer data? Can you share it?” What data are you looking for exactly? And in what format?
With our Certified GMP Compliance data we have a lot of data going back 10+ years. And it is not clear what you are looking for here.
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Yes indeed, have in-use data going back 10+ years.
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And in response to your question “Do they ever ask questions re. the data?“
Yes, absolutely. During the audit, there will be numerous verbal questions. And these will be followed up with more detailed written questions.
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In response to your question “What is “everything” GMP data? Finished product and raw material
testing? monitoring data? water testing? batch sheets? yield? training
records?”The answer is yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes to each.
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When you ask “What “GMP data” are you sharing?” then it’s everything.
First, ee need to notify the product before it goes onto the market with National Pharmaceutical Regulatory Agency (NPRA). They of course will check the ingredients list and preservative regime.
Next, we have “surprise visits” by the local office of NPRA. Here it’s a case of a phone call saying they are outside and want access. These are short, very focused visits. And all of our records and Batch Manufacturing Records (BMRs) must be available. We can never know what they will focus on.
And finally, we have formal inspections every two (2) years. Here a team from the NPRA Head Office will spend one or two days going through everything.
Across all of these compliance checks, the issues identified with this “stupid company” would be identified.
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We have exported to many countries and most customers are requesting our GMP data in order to conform with local regulations. My assumption is that it is mandatory.
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Thanks again for your response.
Yes, I accept that liquid soap is not immune to microbial contamination, and the reason we manufacture under strict GMP Certified conditions.
Yes, our body wash/face wash/shampoo products are the classic soap, alkaline pH-based composition.
And as a scientist, over the years I have contaminated our finished products with various bacterial strains in our microbiology lab. And all came up negative. And have sent our saponified liquids to external labs for similar testing. All came back negative. This was mainly designed to look at the consumer side potential for contamination in the shower/bath.
I am not a supporter of the “clean beauty” concept and agree that the preservation systems adopted are sometimes questionable, as is the entire “clean beauty” notion.
<div>After starting to produce our saponified liquid products I discovered Dr Bronner’s range of products.
And with their products being sold on average every 1.7 seconds, any problems with saponified liquids I’m confident would have shown up by now. The company was
founded in the late 1940s, so they have been around for a while. Dr Bronner’s
generated nearly $170 million in revenue in 2021, so they are not short on resources.And your statement “Not aware Dr. Bronner has so qualified their systems and wouldn’t take
just their word for it anyway. Their systems don;t impress.” Then what does impress you?And finally, there is a proportion of consumers who are affected by the synthetics in skin/hair care products. These include my wife. And the consumers are generally silent. But we hear them as producers of synthetic-free products that actually work.
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Good question. Pre-made soap noodles have added synthetic preservatives and sometimes other synthetics. Our saponified plant oils are entirely free of any synthetics.
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I think we are wandering a long way from my original premise. As an old scientist (I’m now in my early 70s), I am familiar with the published literature. And again, in our case with our saponified liquid body wash, face wash and shampoo, we are capturing those
consumers who are having reactions to the synthetics. And there are a lot of these consumers as we have discovered over 20 years. And this absence of synthetics far outweighs any other negatives. -
Yes, agree totally that preservation is for consumer protection, and the self-preserving elements of our saponified products fulfil this requirement. Plus, the total lack of synthetic preservatives which are causing consumer issues.
When you ask “What data do you have in that context?” can you please elaborate? What did you have in mind?
And in response to your comment, “you have a totally incompetent and negligent assessor,” I’m not big enough to question these guys. My assumption is that he understands the self-preserving elements of saponified liquids (body wash, shampoo, face wash). And this understanding is fairly consistent across EU assessors as we don’t always have the same safety assessor.
Thanks for your comments.
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It’s nothing of the sort. My post is a simple statement of fact if you bother to read and understand what I have written.