[MariaGarcia]

Herbnerd said:

Certainly you could. But then again, knowing your interest in formulation a toothpaste/tooth powder, you could just formulate your own.

Yeeeess, that’s my goal, but then I realized I hadn’t any reference to compare 😅, so If bought these tablets just to test them!
Thanks for clarifying my doubts, it is not easy for me to find someone who knows so much about toothpaste.

[MariaGarcia]

Bill_Toge said:

it depends on the particle size of the solids; the coarser they are, the more likelihood they have of damaging enamel

The tablet fizzs as son i bit It and It seems it totally dissolves un saliva before brushing.

[MariaGarcia]

Thank your again, Herbnerd. I suppose they work like the mixture of baking soda and lemon juice to remove the stubborn dirt from the bottom of the skillet or the oven  😅, I feel these tablets very efective as dentifrice! My teeth are brilliant and smooth 🤗

[MariaGarcia]

Interesting. Thank you, Abdullah.

[MariaGarcia]

I never stop learning on this forum. What is the benefit of adding cationic substances to skin products? I was convinced that they were only used in hair products to combat frizz.

[MariaGarcia]

I’m just a student and maybe I’m talking nonsense, but I think that the needs and therefore the conditioning mechanisms are not the same for hair or skin, so there are no exact analogs. I understand that hair conditioning depends more on aspects such as pH, ionic charge (and that is why cationic substances are used) or the closing of the cuticle. In a shampoo I understand that the type of surfactants used also makes a big difference (I don’t have much experience but I have achieved results that I really like using a combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants). I would also add some refatting agent, and some active ingredient (I personally love the effect of inulin).

In the case of skin, I believe that conditioning depends on maintaining and reinforcing the barrier function of the skin so it is important that the mixture of surfactants is effective but gentle (and in lower imputs than in shampoos), and at least, a refatting agent and a moisturizer should be incorporated, or even an very small imput of a lipid. It doesn’t make sense to me to use a cationic ingredient in a face or body wash.

I find that anyway it is not a single product that achieves the result, but the proper combination and proportion of all of them.

[MariaGarcia]

Hi, Diana1234!

Can you compare their compositions through their certificates of analysis? Beeswax is a natural product and its composition is not always the same. There are variations depending on the area from which it comes, the way it’s been obtained and processed, if it is refined or not, and even from the same hive there may be variations depending on the year of harvest. For instance, here in Spain the composition and behavior of the waxes from the North and those from the South are different, because the South it’s hotter, and since the wax softens at 40ºC the bees must ensure that the hives mantains their shape and don’t melt when the high temperatures (usually above 40ºC) arrive. So the first thing would be to know if you are really using the same type of wax. I think this may affect the result more than the format…

[MariaGarcia]

In my experiencie, lecithin goes to the bottom (I used a granulated form, prediluted in sunflower oil).

[MariaGarcia]

I know, and I thank your honestity, that”s what I’m looking for🙏. Maybe I’ll try at home again, but just for fun, I don’t want to ruin my teeth 😉

Thanks too for telling me about your experience, I like to know how work in the industry is, since I don’t have thit experience by the moment (but I’d like It). I was used to participate in amateur forums but they are not reliable,  what a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with professionals (Thanks, Perry, for this place)

[MariaGarcia]

Thanks a lot. As a student, all this is a valuable information, although it discourages me because I don’t have access to that kind of ingredients, neither to the appropriate tests, so it seems quite useless to experiment with toothpastes at home 

[MariaGarcia]

I understand. But if all this is so vague, how do you formulate a prototype toothpaste for a specific purpose? I mean, you are looking for some characteristics and you need to have an idea about what ingredients to use and in what proportion to get closer to the result you are looking for, and then do the necessary tests to check if the product is correct and/or work on the corrections. There must be some general rules… Or is it just the supplier of each material who tells you the proper dosage?

[MariaGarcia]

Perry said:

We stored sodium hydroxide in glass bottles with a glass stopper and didn’t have this problem.

And what concentration was the solution?

[MariaGarcia]

However, with stainless steel you shouldn’t have any problem. As far as I know it is the only metal that doesn’t react with sodium hydroxide.

[MariaGarcia]

GeorgeBenson said:

@MariaGarcia interesting, so what can i do to prevent this? I suppose i could just make it as i need it and use it all up every time or discard the rest, but that is not ideal. There must be some way to store it without this happening…maybe i could use an airless bottle.

The best solution I know of is to use the right size bottle to minimize the amount of air available. If you use an airless container, make sure that the mechanism resists pH 14.

[MariaGarcia]

chemicalmatt said:

I cannot fathom how kaolin would be a better and less expensive abrasive than dicalcium phosphate, which was used traditionally in these dentrifices. Is there an issue using phosphates in E.U.? If you are to “put clay in the mouth” then try out the perlites from Imerys, a Spanish company. More abrasive than kaolin.

I rely on this:

“Products containing other abrasives (e.g., dicalcium phosphate, sodium bicarbonate, and calcium carbonate) generally had lower RDA values and usually lower PCR scores. There were exceptions (e.g., refined kaolin clay) that had high PCR scores and low RDA values, resulting in higher CEI values“:

Schemehorn BR, Moore MH, Putt MS. Abrasion, polishing, and stain removal characteristics of various commercial dentifrices in vitro. J Clin Dent. 2011;22(1):11-8. PMID: 21290981. 
 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21290981/

[MariaGarcia]

The more concentrated the solution, the more abundant the precipitate and crust. There comes a time when it stops forming, I guess when most of the co2 has reacted. (I was soaper for almost 18 years, used to make 1:1,5 solutions).

NaOH is used to reduce the atmospheric CO2 concentration, given that when they come into contact  transform into Na2CO3.

[MariaGarcia]

ketchito said:

Sodium carbonate is actually quite soluble in water. 

@GeorgeBenson Maybe you are using hard water, and what you’re getting is just calcium hydroxide?

Yes, the crust disolves if you shake.

If you use destilled water, avoid contact with metals, and store un glass containers , it appears too. 

[MariaGarcia]

Hi, Maria:

Maybe I’m saying nonsense, but I think:

1. You are trying to introduce powdered plant, not pigments, and it will not dissolve (even in water) because of the fibers it contains, it is normal that you notice graininess.

2. The pigments contained in these plants are water-soluble, if I’m not mistaken. The other ingredients in your formula are fat, so they won’t color. Maybe you can check this with your provider.

3. As far as I have experienced, the BTMS will not help you to emulsify properly the glycerin. I think you would need an aqueous phase.

4. Another possible option would be to extract the pigment with water, concentrate it as much as possible, and formulate the lipstick as an ointment (which, unlike a real balm, can contain a small proportion of water, usually less than 5%). Here’s an example, albeit with fresh beets: 
https://youtu.be/R2lwca_K9Rk

I hope it helps.

[MariaGarcia]

The same thing happens if you use glass bottles. I believe that crust is sodium carbonate, formed by reacting sodium hydroxide with CO2 from the air inside the bottle.

[MariaGarcia]

Thanks a lot for your answer, Herbnerd. I really apreciate it  <3 .

I asked this because, according to what I studied, the amount of abrasives (in addition to the particle size, of course) in a paste determines its level of abrasiveness, and depending on the orientation for the formulation that I had, these should be added in 15-50%, in depending on the degree of abrasiveness desired. In a solid toothpaste the proportion of abrasive is much higher, and I was looking for a way to reduce it…

I feel a bit embarrassed now because I really don’t know the particle size of these two abrasives . Here in Spain, I suppose it’s the same in other countries, it is difficult for small formulators to access different qualities or granulometries of a material. It is sometimes difficult to get such accurate information from retailers.

I made a 100g sample batch, using A.Vogel brand’s kaolin, because it is the finest and purest I have been able to access, and calcium carbonate that the pharmacy on my street supplied me (they have been making pharmaceutical products since 1719 in their back room lab). I’ve just sent them an inquiry about the particle size of their carbonate, I hope they can answer me…

In my sample I did not feel that the product was too abrasive, my teeth felt polished, and I felt a less gritty sensation than using, for example, Colgate Cavity Protection Caries (I can’t find how it is valued by the RDA), although I know that is a subjective perception, and I’s still concerned by the high amount of abrasives…

Thanks again

[MariaGarcia]

Hahaha, don’t worry, you’ve been very helpful, and you’ve piqued my curiosity even more :p . Also, searching the link you mention, I am finding a lot of interesting questions, for example how colloidal gels formed by an anionic surfactant and a fatty alcohol penetrate the hair and strengthen it.

Thank you very much!  <3

[MariaGarcia]

I see… And… how do you get that? Is this the role of hydrolyzed proteins, silicones, lipids, etc, or are these just the cream of the cake, and is some additional mechanism needed to increase surface area and make room for them?

I’ll try to find the link you mentioned. I do not know if with these data I will be easy to find, if you remember any clue about the title or the content I will thank you.

(I love your explanations. For someone with a graphic mind like mine, they are perfect)

[MariaGarcia]

Thanks a lot, Pharma. How can you increase the surface of hair? This is a new concept for me…

[MariaGarcia]

That’s because I’m studying (on my own) and I like to understand why things are done the way they are. In the text I’m reading it says that they are related to why conditioners are somewhat more acidic than shampoos, and the way cationic compounds bind to the hair fiber. Both are mentioned (isoelectric and isoionic), and I don’t understand the difference between them, nor how they influence this (especially isoionic).

Thank you very much, I will read the link you gave me, it sounds educational!

[MariaGarcia]

Thanks for sharing 😍