[luttie]

I found a document from Jungbunzlauer that I guess may be the one you were not finding?
https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1527679.pdf?bs=5051&b=353679&st=20&r=la&ind=personalcare

They tested a standard liquid soap formula with 5% of each “moisturising ingredient” and measured the “improvement in skin moisture content” comparing to a control. The results were:

control => -3%

glycerine (5%) => +4%

sodium lactate (5%) => +6%

potassium lactate (5%) => +9%

sodium lactate (2.5%) + sodium gluconate (2.5%) => +4%

Read as substance => % improvement in skin moisture

Sorry for replying after 2 years :/

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[luttie]

I can’t manage to edit the post so I’ll make the corrections here.
The formulas that went too soft were:

1. (E) - 24% Candelilla wax and 76% sunflower oil
2. (F) - 34% Candelilla wax and 64% sunflower oil

The process was just mix them, heat long enough to blend everything together, mix, still heating for like ~1min to ensure everything is melted and mixed. Pour in silicone molds. Put in freezer. Unmold after ~ 3-4 hours. I couldn’t even unmold (E) because it was too soft.

The same formulas and procedure, when using Carnauba wax instead of Candelilla, give a quite hard bar for both cases. Are these wax SO different? I’ve seen some online material and people using them and it really looks like something in my process is off.

[luttie]

The #1 thing is to search for visible changes in your product before and after the problem
Did you notice any change in appearance, color, smell?
Did it made some foam by itself? There is some precipitate at the bottom?
All these things indicate important interactions or reactions between components

The #2 things is to track the possible cause of the changes (the only one we know for now is the lack of foam after a few days)
I think the best way to find any interactions may be doing knockout experiments like describe here

The example Perry used was also for a cleansing solution so it should be quite easy to follow.

These experiments are intended to check if one or more of your ingredients is causing the problem.

Another way to go is to start simple (SDBS + SLES + CDEA + CITRIC ACID) And see if the problem persists. If so, you should then test SDBS+SLES and SDBS + CDEA.
I’ve heard bad things about formalin (I think it is not legal in some places also) but I never used so can’t really opine.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  luttie. Reason: activate notification

[luttie]

I recommend you to start simple and add one ingredient per batch. I usually make 10~16g per batch so it is not too expensive. Also use the less expensive oil before the real fine-tunning, when you have a great formula that requires very few tweaks.

I would start with only:
Batch 1 (Please make small batches! like <20g!)
SCI - 70%
Cheap oil (coconut. I usually use sunflower) - 4%
Butter - 5%
CAPB 8%
Cetyl Alcohol - 13%

Batch 2 
SCI - 52%
Cheap oil - 4%
Butter - 5%
CAPB 8%
Cetyl Alcohol - 31%

In previous tests (using starches and cetearyl alcohol) I couldn’t see any difference comparing the version with ~50% and ~70% surfactants. So please try it yourself and see if your formula can be cheaper and still do the same job!

It should take less than 30 minutes in freezer for each formula to be good enough to test.
If you use starches (corn or tapioca) instead of some of the Cetyl/Stearic (like ~20% starches and ~5% stearic + cetyl) it becomes “ok” faster but can look rough (not well-finished).

---

Then you can go adding 1 or 2 ingredients for each batch.
Remove from the cheaper oil or butter to add oils and from SCI to add solids.
BTMS is mostly cetearyl alcohol so you can change some of the Cetyl alcohol for it.

Points:
> Oils and butters will only fight with the oils in your hair for the surfactants attention, that’s true. But this is a solid product and the *feeling* is important. About ~5% butters and ~5% oils usually give me a bar that is quite hard but not a piece of stone lol. If I try to regulate the softness with glycerin, water or capb bad things may happen. More on that below.
> Jojoba oil is VERY expensive. I recommend you to do at least the first tests with another cheaper oil and later try to incorporate jojoba.
>more than 15% CAPB can make the bar quite sticky. This is much less important if you have quite some hardeners (cetyl/cetearyl alcohols or stearic acid total >20%).
> I’ve seen bars with polyquat 7 (not mine though) so I know it is possible. 
> Glycerin can mush bars very easily (I see you didn’t use it but still a good info). 
In my tests there is also very little (not noticeable) difference in performance and final appearance substituting cetearyl for tapioca starch or corn starch in order to add up to 100%.

Action:
> Too sticky? Reduce glycerin or CAPB or Water
> Too soft? Reduce oils and/or butters
> Lacks foam? Reduce oils and butters, increase surfactant
> Try one conditioning agent at time. Make one batch with BTMS, one with Polyquat 7 and one with both. Then compare. 
> Reduce fragrance. I usually see it <1.5%. 

By the way, what kind is your SCI? The powder version? There is a commercial version that is ~60% SCI and ~40% stearic acid.

—-

Here some formulas I found and saved for myself. Good luck!

Handmade style shampoo bar (with starch) (Colonial Chem)

Hor Pour shampoo bar (Colonial Chem)

The file shampoo bar melt: I did it myself and hate it to this day because it is really sticky. It has a lot of glycerin. Polyquat 10 at only 0.2% (I didn’t use it because I don’t have it 😐  ).

>>>>The file from Ajinomoto: There is a formula in page 25. Also each ingredient comes with a function that can help you to compare to your formulation. Guar quat at 0.8%.

Note
Many of the internet formulas just feel “meh”. Some are quite sticky and crumble easily. Some also can be very different because the location where the maker was is another one! I’ve seen bars that looked quite good because the person lived in places where the temperature is like ~20ºC. I livre in Brazil. We got up to 35ºC easily. Keep that in mind please.

-

Feel free to discuss it more if you can manage to understand my terrible english ::wink:

[luttie]

How are you adding the fragrance?
I can second @Syl : I’ve heard about mixing the fragrance with a powder (starch) to make it stay longer. Also, if I’m not getting it wrong, there are some fragrances that are supposed to support the hot environment of soap better (you can check with your supplier) and I’ve seen some soap formulas using up to 5% of fragrance [1] [2]. 
The references I could find are not the most relliable one but I’ve heard this multiple times.

How much are you heating the noodles (temperature)? For how long (time)? Are you adding the fragrance at top temperature or when it’s almost solid?
Another point: are you mixing directly the fragrance into the soap? Try using a little CAPB or carrier oil (so it is easier to mix it uniformly).

Most of ULProspectos formulas use <0.5% of fragrance, but if your fragrance is better you can use less… There’s no way to now, really. If your fragrance is more dilluted you’ll need to use more and that’s it. Just be sure to stay within the safety limits.

My english is quite *meh* but I hope you can understand.

[luttie]

I’m a Chemical Engineer and have never had any prior experience in the cosmetic industry. ~6 months ago, I started working as a formulator with some college friends to launch our own brand. It’s been a quite interesting and challenging journey, especially because our products are all “green/natural/eco-friendly” AND solid (bars, sticks, etc.) so we have to deal both with fearmongering and wide range temperature stability (we are in Brazil and the country has temperatures from 3 to 42ºC: smile:)

[luttie]

Where are you buying your tapioca starch from? I live in Brazil so I can use food grade which is VERY cheap (like 8 BRL (about 1 to 2 US$) per kg). The cosmetics “tapioca starch” version, tapioca pure (which I think is not that different really, maybe it is more relevant in formulations with water) is about 30x more expensive.

Here are my recommendations:

1) You can try cornstarch, it shouldn’t be that different in this case and it is used by many brands. I’ve used it once or twice and couldn’t spot any difference from the tapioca version despite being more expensive (for me). I’ve seen some bars made with wheat flour too. Give it a try. Use the versions without too many stuff (like baking soda, vitamins).

2) I do not recommend loading up your bar with so many oils and waxes… This may be the reason why you need to use about 2g per wash I guess.

I would reduce jojoba oil to 1% and coconut to 2%.

3) In my (limited) tests, carnauba wax impacted less the foam than cetyl or cetearyl alcohol i.e. it was better for the shampoo. I didn’t like candelilla wax because it wouldn’t solidify in a lotion bar trial (not sure why though) so I kept it out of shampoo bars tests. Are you sure you’re using carnauba and not candelilla?

Usually cetyl/cetearyl alcohol gives a better appearance than stearic acid and waxes and increase shower stability (at the cost of reducing foam). I like to have >20% of things that will be liquid while hot so it is easier to process the paste.

If your carnauba source is expensive (I guess it is because the tapioca was) you may try other hardeners that are (in my opinion) better for this usage and cheaper, such as stearic acid and glyceryl stearate.

—————————————-

So my recommended starting point is:

SCI 55%

Starch - 18.75%

Coconut oil 3.5%

Jojoba oil 0.5%

Coco betaine 12%

Carnauba wax 4%

Cetearyl alcohol 8%

Benzylalcohol DHA | 0.6 grams | 0.75% (didn’t change)
Lavender ess. oil | 0.4 grams | 0.50% (didn’t change)

Please note that with more powders and less oils the formula may be more difficult to mix and more prone to “cracking” so you need to adjust from there.

Do knockout tests[https://chemistscorner.com/using-knockout-experiments-to-reduce-formula-costs/%5D. Remove the carnauba, cetyl and oils one by one. How do they affect the processing and final product?

The gruum shampoo bar [https://www.gruum.com/product/har-shampoo-bar-fragrance-free-50g/] for instance only has 3 ingredients: SCS, coconut oil and water.

——————————-

-> Just out of curiosity, this 0.5% lavender E.O. is enough to give a nice fragrance when washing your hair? I’ve been trying from 0.5 to 2% in my bars and <1% fragrance was so faint… The only exception were (1) a great fragrance house sample and (2) ylangylang EO.

[luttie]

I can only agree and cry 🤣

My first shampoo bars took about 3 months to be barely usable (and I mean barely). It was so hard to make it work that for sometime I tried to make normal soap… After sometime I got a better mess (from the real, acidic, surfactant-based shampoo bars) and was trying to improve from there. By this time they were play-doh like when hot and needed to be molded or pressed (molded versions would be slightly “clumsy” and rustic).

Suddenly I was asked to make them REALLY pourable (almost like a candle) which took me many months. I managed to get something usable but needed to sacrifice the feeling and foaming so it wasn’t worth it really. The bars were quite glossy and pretty though :(((

Since then I’m always searching ways to make it pourable and more processable. In many facebook and forum groups people claim to have “pourable” formulas but they are just like my “messy”: a very thick cream that you can sort-of-fill a silicone mold with.

[luttie]

Reduce oils to a minimum. If they are still mushy, try cetyl alcohol, stearic acid, soy wax or any other good hardener. From 1-15% the feeling and processing of the bar can vary but it shouldn’t be too bad.

MY first trials had about 5% oils and 5% butters but now I see it wasn’t a quite good idea, lol.

You can substitute the water for cocamidopropyl betaine. I’ve used it up to 13% without problems (but was using about 13% of hardeners such as cetearyl alcohol or stearic acid).

Since you are measuring everything in grams and making a quantity big enough to be weighted (100g) I recommend you to measure the mass of this “5 drops of lavender oil” to make things reproducible.

Points:

- I still thinking you have way too much oil (about 20%)

- There is no need to include many different oils in this initial learning phase, just pick one (the cheapest) try different levels (3%, 10%, 20% [you’ve got this 20% already]). Then substitute it for others partially and see what changes. Probably not much.

- Do knockout experiments. I see you removed glycerin! It weakens bars greatly and took me quite a time to discover it was the problem with mine.

Reccomendation:

~ 50-70% SCI

~ 0-20% CAPB

~ 0-15% cetearyl alcohol or cetyl alcohol (it WILL supress foam, I find stearic acid better but generally gives a brittle appearance so you may need to combine it with something else)

~ 0-15% starch

~ 0-7% oils, butters, fragrance, preservative

[luttie]

Thank you for the help Snow!
I’ve seen this 1/1/1 formula before. I researched in humblebee, brumble berry, this forum, soapmaking forum, ulprospector and many “mommy bloggers”. Since I was trying to get used both to the “feeling” of each wax or hardener and to it’s “hardening effect” I decided to limit my trials to only 1 harderner at time + sunflower oil. I’ve seen some of them listed as “fast-absorbing” or “slippery” and wanted to give them a kind of neutral test.

I just can’t manage to understand why my candelilla samples did get so soft 🙁 . They were the only ones too soft to be used from all tests.
I’ve made 2 other lotion bars succesfully before, using a butter, an oil, cetyl alcohol and stearic acid. But since I was using quite a lot of ingredients (about 10-20 in these samples) I decided to try each wax on its own.

I still have no idea if I made any mistake in the process or the combination of candelilla and sunflower oil is just no great for hardness. 34% wax should be at least hard enough to be unmolded… But is a kind of an ointment consistency.

For instance, the carnauba version was so hard that I think if I used 33% of it + 33% of a butter it would be quite diffcult to use the bar, so I would reduce the wax to about 20%. I can see however how beeswax for instance is VERY likely to result in great products using these ratios. I found it to be the easiest to work with.

[luttie]

I will do that. Unfortunatelly I can’t manage do edit the main post so I’ll update it in the replies…

[luttie]

That growth? Its the pine tree

LOL

[luttie]

Thanks. Do you have any recommendation about how to set my experiments?

I’ll try some formulas this week to test these thickeners together (natural waxes, glyceryl stearate, cetyl alcohol and stearic acid in different proportions). I’ve seen some suppliers formulas using like 4-5 waxes with 4-5% each and I was quite curious about how did they arrive at such composition.

I’m think about experiments using 1:1 (combining 2 of them each about ~ 15% each) and 1:1:1 (when combining 3 of them each about ~12% each) for now.

[luttie]

Thank you for your reply!
The full formula is right there. Sorry if I was not clear enough, English is not my first language.

The formula is just the % or hardener/thickener with sunflower oil up to 100%;

So for instance in experiment A whe have 24% carnauba wax -> so there is 76% sunflower oil.
I’ve used only 2 ingredients per batch (hardener + sunflower oil) to make it simpler (for me) to understand what was going on in each case.