KMRCSMiami
Forum Replies Created
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I am happy for your next adventure in life! But I hope you continue to bless us with your wisdom on Chemist Corner!
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This is a loaded question that is difficult to answer well with the information provided. Your existing method is not sustainable so I am happy you’re considering improving existing methods.
I guess my next question would be what are you making? share the formula and viscosity, budget …. all of these things affect recommendations. My next question would be where is this formula being scaled/prepared?
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I think there is a time and a place to own your IP. There are many, many successful brands who dont own the IP and do OK. BUT there are also many brands who suffer because they are locked in with a manufacturer that is problematic.
During the pandemic what I saw as a formulator was many brands in did not own their formula IP and were stuck with a manufacturer that could not meet their demands or were struggling due to the pandemic. The brands were stuck! So they reverse engineered something similar with a formulator, owned the IP and were able to shop around if the manufacturer ever acted up or eventually bring it in house if you have the funding. This is why many push to own IP as you will always be able to shop around. The other option is to offer to purchase the IP from the contract manufacturer however during the pandemic many of my clients informed me that the manufacturers refused or required a ridiculous amount that didn’t make logical sense for the brand, so they reversed engineered something similar.
If you are starting out, I think white/private label options are great. Many brands use bulk white label formulas and simply repackage them. You can purchase these in smaller quantities and see how it does, what the feedback is, etc. The issue here is sometimes the supplier may choose to stop offering these white/private label options with or without any notice, so you may need to pivot in response to this. But this is the nature of the beast! No option is perfect! Its being able to go with the flow and pivot to find good solutions.
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I tend to roll my eyes at the majority of these presentations so I am very happy you’re guiding your friend here. I often find them to be -like you described- filled with fear mongering or really poorly researched. I wish I had a good one to link, but none come to mind! ????
I can’t share a good one.. but I can point you to some bad ones!
- “the first XYZ”…. its likely not the first or first 5
- “the only XYZ”…. same with ‘first’.
- anything that has studies conducted on fruits or bread. especially if they dont use controls…
Otherwise, I am happy to give it a read and let you know if my eyes roll ????
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I recommend starting with a reference formula/product.. this is something that is currently on the market. and then you may ask for assistance on how to make it or help with trial/error. Hair care is entirely subjective. A good leave in to you, is horrible for another. So whether you’re the formulator or client, always ask for or provide a reference. Its also a great way to reduce liability. There is a tangible goal with slight customizations.
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Hi Emily, what I think would be helpful here is going to Sephora/Target/Ulta… and finding an existing reference product on the market that meets your desired finish and ingredient restrictions…. the ingredient restrictions here is key as you cannot expect a MAC product to function well with WHOLE FOODS restrictions if you catch my drift. You then can study the INCI, and do some fun R&D trying to reverse engineer it. Its work, but its fun!
By doing this you will learn a ton, and learn about different blends and the finishes they yield. Happy formulating!
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I *think* you have precipitates due to incompatibility of ingredients, specifically the Sodium Coco sulfate. Cationic surfactants cannot be used with anionic surfactants.
Poly-10 - cationic
Sodium coco sulfate - anionic
Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine - amphoteric
Cocamide DEA - non-ionic
Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride - cationic
cationic cannot be combined with anionic, and is likely causing the instability + precipitate.
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????shareee the formulaaaaa please.
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Always, always, always read the agreement. In the agreement there should be language defining the scope of work, etc. If in the agreement it lists those specifications that you want- hold them accountable to it. If in an email it states they can meet that specification- hold them accountable.
I dont know the scope of your work, but you state “private label”. This is 100% off-the-shelf (white label, but some call it private label as well) or sometimes off-the-shelf with TINY changes to the formula. These issues that you list may simply be the formula itself, may hint at inconsistent manufacturing procedures or it may be changes that occurred in response to your required customizations. Because I do not know the changes you requested- I dont know.
Don’t be afraid to speak to your contract manufacturer. They can educate you on why this is happening, the limitations of your requests, etc. If they do not wish to communicate with you, walk away.
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A few things:
(1) Have you had any issues with the resveratrol? In my experience its poorly soluble in water. I’ve only successfully solubilized it in alcohol.
(2) I would remove the floral water, its not doing anything here other than adding potential micro concerns. I would also remove 72hr moisture based solely on unfamiliarity with active ingredient. I find many plant based actives such as this to be gimmicky, you can increase the glycerin if you wish to increase the % of humectants or add sodium pca. At least that’s how I would do it, I love glycerin. And its much cheaper.
(3) I think what’s missing is a nice silicone blend.
(4) as previously mentioned, chelating agent.
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I have not tried anything like this- although I am a major skeptic when it comes to these things so I would be hesitant. Some eQMS have these built in, but i’m told they are not 100%, still requires oversight.
I would love to throw in a few formulas that I know would flag and test it for sensitivity and accuracy- if you’re considering this tool, this is how I would validate it. I feel, while useful, it will still require some oversight as anything regulatory is extremely nuanced and this is why experts in this field are difficult to replace (my opinion). And will not replace your compliance verification process, but streamline it as there will still be manual work for regular validation.
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Hi,
So first things first- always refer to instructions for use by the manufacturer. Based off of some quick Googling, it seems the additives should not exceed 5% of the product, including a recommended 2% fragrance maximum. As the base does not contain water, your additions should be oil soluble. You may increase the % of the additives, but this will require some testing for trial/error as it will affect both stability and the hardness of this product.
Hot Pour INCI: Glyceryl Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Butyrospermum Parkii Butter, Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate, Glyceryl Oleate, Cocos Nucifera Oil, Behentrimonium Chloride, Isopropyl Alcohol, Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.
You are headed in the right direction by thinking of BTMS-25 (Behentrimonium Methosulfate
(and) Cetearyl Alcohol) as its cationic and great for hair. But its my opinion that BTMS-50 would be better as its more conditioning and will provide more slip. The panthenol does not seem to play well here, neither does the addition of oils as you’re looking for slip/conditioning agents.Now knowing that its (1) oil soluble, and (2) the recommended % by the manufacturer, you may play around and find what works best for you! Knowing you have ~5% to play with, you may do a titration of BTMS/fragrance to see where the sweet spot is.
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You may also consider STEPANQUAT® Helia (Disunfloweroylethyl Dimonium Chloride (and) Sunflower Seed Oil Glycerides (and) Lauryl Lactyl Lactate). This may work better than the BTMS.
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I do flat-rate custom development with 3 rounds of samples; above 3 rounds is extremely, extremely rare and typically only required when the client has no sense of direction. The flat-rate is also broken down into XYZ hours at rate $$. This I learned is important as you will notice some clients require more assistance than others, and other clients will have a boat load of questions which will eat away at your time. I also do not include ingredients as its impossible to keep every ingredient in house. It also makes them aware of unit costs. The few times I waived ingredient costs, the client conveniently chose very expensive raw materials and I said never again.
When I first started- the flat rate was broken into 3rds- one third to start, one third to release samples and one third to release final formula/sop. However this quickly changed during the pandemic. I realized many people could not afford to complete the work and I ended up burning a lot of my time on clients who could not afford to pay for sample release or even their final formulas. Now, I do 100% or 80% upfront. I also require clients to provide shipment labels as its one less invoice I have to send.
I do a very simple stability assessment in-house, however if the client desires a robust stability assessment, there is a charge. When I first started one of the hardest things for me to do was ask for money- so getting into the mindset of “everything has its costs” was very difficult. Now its not a problem ????
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Happy Birthday to our favorite chemist! thank you for all that you do for our growing community ????????????
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There should be a button on all posts that we can press to request the formula as we cannot do anything without complete information.
Please provide formula + method. ????
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yes- also what do you mean by “test batch”. At this scale (2000 units) this is a full-on production. This isn’t a size you test anything with ????
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Would love to help but I need formula and process information. The variations may have failed for a variety of reasons. Please share full info when possible.
@Perry44 , I think a good addition to the site would be a button you have to click prior to posting to ensure people who require formulation assistance provide the full formula prior to posting ????
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This is super dangerous and unfortunately this trend isn’t going anywhere. Its gotten so bad that based on my knowledge of natural products, that I refuse to buy things if they are unpreserved or sold in specific stores.
The sad thing is this won’t end well. I am 100% sure that they have received complaints from customers or noticed stability issues in their products, however due to a lack of knowledge think its part of the course. That growth? Its the pine tree ????
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I use MicroChem. Let me know if they are a fit.
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During the pandemic I received several R&D requests for that and targeting other intimate areas. Now not so much.
We’re in an era where there are balms, lotions and sprays for every body part ???? and yet we wonder why consumerism is so high. You have brands pushing that every part of your body requires a separate product, each “pH balanced” to the target area.
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often what we see being done isn’t the most effective or efficient- but I wouldn’t know if its the best for you without a clear picture of what it is you truly need.
There are still a lot of unknowns here. You may message me directly and I can see if I can provide you with some pointers. Scaling in manufacturing is nuanced, and can be expensive if you dont know what to purchase, items to consider, etc. etc. So lets see if we can get a clearer picture and we can see if there are economical solutions here.
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To add, you want to ensure there are built-in redundancies in your business and product release process. Like they said, marketing/sales should be separate to formulation. But also…. the formulator should not be your QC expert, regulatory expert and QA expert in addition to formulation expert. You want redundancies in your team, where one may have the expertise to “do it all”, but you have others who bear the responsibility to ensure the redundancies protect you from a very expensive OOPS!
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hi, I pointed out an issue with the sodium coco sulfate, maybe the concentration of this is too high. I would remove entirely.
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Oh, I read “over 20 ingredients” so I was confused. I would recommend making it extremely easy to assist you by clearly listing the formula. The last thing I want to do is guess what the other XX% is. Thanks