ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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@h__w Xanthan gum can be tricky to work with sometimes. Did you add Xanthan gum as the first ingredient directly to the water while vigurously mixing, keeping this mixing for at least 15-20 min? I’d then add the Coco-glucoside, Betaine and DHDH H in that order. Also, what’s your final viscosity?
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@nishil113 I want to point out first that I’d be better not to use Cocamide DEA along with Bronopol, since ingredients which have free secondary amines (like Cocamide DEA) shouldn’t be mixed with nitrosating agents (like Bronopol). Also, even though cationic surfactants can be added in small amounts to anionic solutions (phase diagram has a zone in which this mixture doesn’t form precipitates), check during stability if there is no sign of turbidity. And lastly, you have a too high amount of Vitamin E for a rinse-off product.
So, regarding your question, it’d be more helpdul to understand what do you mean for harder. Does it make your scalp itch? If that’s the case, you might be sensitive to either SLES or CAPB. I’d try first replacing part of the SLES for a milder surfactant (like a carboxylate).
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@ankita I’d first ask if the color fades after 15 days exposed to sunlight or UV light? If so, you need to add a UV filter. If that’s not the case, check for the pH and if your dye is acidic or basic (in case it’s basic, it might be reacting with SLES, so you need to change to an acidic dye).
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@caro I can’t see clearly, but the surface doesn’t look so smooth, but a bit grainy. I’m not familiar with silica microspheres, so I’d suggest to make a test without them (maybe the level is too high). I’d also do another test increasing the amount of waxes 50%.
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@Farrukh You can check this formula in Ulprospector: https://www.ulprospector.com/en/eu/Cleaners/Detail/940/191997/Enzymatic-Stain-Removal-Spray-Formulation-ES-08-FR-11i. What you need is an enzymatic product for that purpose, especially one that contains a protease (mainly) and lipase. On the other hand, you could also have a stain remover based on H2O2 or sodium hypochlorite, which would also work.
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@1501 Preservatives specifically active against yeats and mold are parabens, but if you’re not OK with parabens, organic acids (as long as your final pH is lower than 6.0, and the lower the better), and Iodopropynyl Butyl Carbamate. PHMB has also activity against these microorganisms, but there are some concerns, especially when used in sprayable products. The idea is to mix a good antibacterial preservative with one of these, so you have broad spectrum…or you can use a broad spectrum preservative as well.
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@sg_ Foam is opaque by a physical phenomena. For foam being produced, air is trapped by a thin film which comprises a mixture of surfactants, co-surfactants, waxy materials (in the case of shaving creams), etc. If you have just few bubbles of any type of surfactant solution, you’ll see it more or less transparent. But the more bubbles come together, the tighter the packing between them and the harder the light to pass through unaltered, so I don’t believe you’d be able to have transparent lather.
Nevertheless, shaving foams are more solid and wither than foams from other surfactant solutions, since they have waxy materials (like stearic acid, myristic acid, lauric acid, beeswax) to increase creaminess and durability of those foams. You could try to make a surfactant solution with regular synthetic anionics (like SLES, or sulfonates) and make the film more rigid by using co-surfactants instead of waxes (like CAPB, CDEA, amine oxides, etc.). This foam won’t be transparent, but it won’t be so white either.
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Hi @yesunyi. I haven’t worked with hair products with H2O2, but I have formulated bleaching products with 5% H2O2. Thermal stability is critical, that’s why I wouldn’t skip this type of test, at least at 40C. I believe your final product will be sold in a flexible and opaque PE bottle, right? You need to put a flexible bottle inside the oven because it’ll eventually swell. You could check your sample first every hour, and then every day, just to be sure how the stability is going and the bottle won’t break. The more H2O2 you have in your formula, the less stable your product will be, and that’s why I use few stabilizers, keep a low pH and avoid some ingredients that can impair stability.
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@bayo1214 Did you check pH drift in your product? Usually when you neutralize LABSA with NaOH, there’s an equilibrium formed rather than a complete neutralization, and unless you’re high on pH (over 10), the pH will go down affectin dyes (that are usually pH sensitive). This is for the color issue.
Regarding separation, maybe you’re too high on LABSA, or actually, too low on pH so that your sulfonate is converting again into its acid form (LABSA), which is not as soluble in water as the salt.
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Hi @Ola. I honestly haven’t used gelatin in any hair care product, but I don’t believe it’d do much than increase the viscosity (forming hydrocolloids)…nevertheless, I don’t know how it might impact on stability.
Being not a fan of hydrolyzed proteins for hair products, I’m aware that the quaternized types have more affinity for hair fibers, so I’d use them instead (I remember Gluadin WQT P being a quaternized version of hydrolyzed wheat protein).
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@Zara Yes, you can use Lamesoft PO65 and still get a clear formula. There’s a shampoo formula with Lamesoft PO65 by BASF on Ulprospector, that you can use as reference: https://www.ulprospector.com/es/la/PersonalCare/Detail/1960/113833/Clear-NPA-Shampoo-Formulation-US-00797-030?doc=1027988&st=20.
As @Belassi mentioned, not everyone like the effect of Lamesoft PO65 on hair, so you have to test is to see if it feels ok for you, and especially at which dose it gives the best result.
I’d advise to use PQ-10 as well (consider that it’s derived from Cellulose, so it’s on natural origin), of Guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, for both film forming and as aid for oil deposition.
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@Nikifarokhi I believe Dimethicone and Isododecane are ok when mixing with your waxes at high temperature, but Cyclopentasiloxane should be added not higher than 40-45C.
Castor oil is indeed incompatible with some silicones. You can find here a link on information of compatible/incompatible materials you can use with Cyclomethicone, as a reference: https://samaro.fr/pdf/FT/XIAMETER_FT_PMX_0245-CYCLOPENTASILOXANE___EN_.pdf.
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@filiz I recommend you to approach a pH of 6 before adding the Betaine. You might notice an increase in viscosity compared to your other formulas, since Betaine will be mostly in the zwitterionic state and interact better with SLES, allowing you to add less salt to reach your viscosity.
If this doesn’t work, try to either increase SLES (1 or 2% increase would be fine), or increase Betaine (1% would be ok). In both cases you’ll notice an increase in viscosity without much salt compared to your previos tests.
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@Padmavathi I’m glad you managed to make it clear. Good luck!
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@stephm212 It’s a bit hard to tell since many of the ingredients are blends, so you won’t get the real order of each ingredient in the formula, but I might think the glycerin could be the issue.
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@Zara I’d actually add some silicone, unless you want to avoid them. You could also add glyceryl oleate, or even a surfactant that has a nice after feel, like Sodium cocoyl glutamate (only watch for your final viscosity since it tends to reduce it).
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@Ktlo as @Pharma mentioned, you can get a thicker honey so it doesn’t drip at the start. You can even increase honey’s viscosity by adding glucose or sucrose (common sugar), to make the solution more “concentrated”.
I used to formulate wound dressings for a biotech group, and I remember that the antimicrobial properties of honey on wound healing were due to its ability to greatly reduce water activity. Nevertheless, since glucose, fructore, sucrose, etc., have low water permeation when they are applied to the skin (they are very water soluble and the lipid layer of the SC is, wel…lipidish), honey would not actually be a good humectant but quite the opposite (and that’s why it works for wound healing). Glycerin on the other hand has a different partition coefficient and holds less water, so it can permeate better.
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@Ola I understand. I would still lower the Dimethicone to prevent build-up, and add a bit of PQ-7 (PQ-10 might be too much in terms of build-up) for better and more even deposition of the silicone.
Did you try your prototype already? Try it first with Dimethicone 3-4%, PQ-7 (10% w/w) at 1%, Cetyl alcohol 4-5% and without Phenoxyethanol. If you need more slip, you can start increasing the Dimethicone…and I wouldn’t increase butters (they actually reduce slip) and natural oils (they just don’t feel so nice on hair).
Also, I noticed you added coco-betaine. Any particular reason for that? It wouldn’t be on my lineup of ingredients for a conditioner, which of course doesn’t mean you can’t use it.
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@Spadirect Not talking about the efficacy (which might be low for certain strains), being an ether you could expect that the presence of surfactants (especially non ionic) will make the ether more available in the oil phase of the emulsion rather than in the water phase, so it’d be better to add another preservative more water soluble.
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@filiz You can increase the SLES a bit, or the Betaine, or the Sodium chloride.
Also, you don’t want to go too down on pH, since Betaine would behave as a cationic and react with the SLES (don’t go lower than 6). Actually, you can test if a raise on pH would increase viscosity. Do you want your pH range to be between 5.5 - 6.0 for an specific reason?
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@Padmavathi Yes, you can put one sample on the fridge just for testing, to see if cooling rate here is an issue.
Also, maybe you can make a sample without Castor oil, since it has triglycerides, which need to be broken down first to have free fatty acids for saponification. Again, just as a test.
Water loss could affect clarity, although it might not be the issue here. Just to be sure, you can make another test using a bit of excess water to see if clarity improves.
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Hi @Prashy123. The benchmarks you mentioned have different formulas to the one you posted. I’d recommend you to check some books with already stabilized formulas, like “Poucher’s Perfumes, Cosmetics and Soaps”, and “Cosmetic and Toiletry Formulations” (you can find them in servers like genesis library).
Regarding your questions, I’d first add a base (TEA or NaOH) to the water phase, so you can neutralize your Stearic acid and turn it into an emulsifier.
Your Kojic acid dipalmitate has an extremely high melting point (94-97C). When you make an emulsion, you need to be few grades above the highest melting point, and unless you have an in-line high shear emulsifier, it’d be very difficult to make the emulsion without having this ingredient crystallizing before being emulsified, not to mention that you have too many solid ingredients in your oil phase which make emulsion droplets too rigid and not so flexible (you could reduce some, or replace by liquid ones), which would also account for the issue you’re experiencing. Natural beeswax is also a bit hard to emulsify, just so you know.
Also, without a silicone or mineral oil, your formula won’t have good slip, especially if you have butters (Caprylic capric triglyceride will absorb too fast).You could actually reduce your Xanthan gum, but not so much, since your water phase should also have viscosity, let’s say up to 0.2%.
Check also your preservative system, since I’m not sure it’ll be enough for your product.
And also, you need to check what actually “natural and oil free” means, if you’re gonna market this product, since many of the ingredients are not precisely natural, and for sure it’s not an oil-free formulation (at least technically speaking)…maybe it’d be better to say without leaving and oily residue, or something like that.
Good luck!
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@Ola I’d actually reduce Cetyl alcohol a bit, so the product is not so thick and can spread good along hair fibers. I’d remove Phenoxyethanol, since Germall Plus should be enough to preserve the system. I’d definitely reduce Dimethicone, and maybe even replace part of it by Amodimethicone, which has more affinity and builds up less. D-panthenol at that level might be too much…it’s actually more active when applied to skin.
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@Ichlas The problem is that it can migrate from the packaging to your product.