ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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@Abdullah If you checked commercial brands, they mostly use mixtures of anionics, since they have a synergy when mixing different HLB surfactants. LABSA is often mixed with either SLES or SLS. Mixing also increases solubility of LABSA, especially in ionic systems where it tends to form precipitates at moderate levels.
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@poonpf Also, it’s more expensive than other esters, and silicones outperform it without a negative afterfeel.
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@Thota I used to make an emulsion with both the water and the oil phase in the same reactor. We managed to adjust the configuration in a way that they both could be mixed in the same vessel, so maybe you could try that (one important thing is that you need a cap on top of the vessel, so vapor heat is not lost and can help melt the waxes that will be on top of the water phase).
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@zacchaeus Were you using colorants or pigments? I’ve used colorants in conditioners, and they mixed very well (since they are water soluble), even when added directly. The main issue there would be the long term stability, since uually water soluble colorants are anionic in nature, and they might fade quite quickly in the presence of cationic bases.
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@Abdullah Even though Amodimethicone and Guar/PQ-10 have cationic charge, they deposit through different mechanisms. Guar and PQ’s form a coacervate with the anionic surfactants, and it’s this neutral complex that deposits on hair in an uneven way (during dilution), and that’s why these materials thend to build-up on hair. Amodimethicone on the other hand deposits in an even way, so once a layer it’s formed, it’ll repel any additional Amodimethicone due to repulsive (cationic-cationic) interaction.
I do believe the anionics (ang glucosides) you have in your formulas are more likely to cause the irritation, since they are actually used (especially the anionics) to denature proteins.
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@Syl Since silicones weight down hair and reduce its water uptake, the easiest way is to remove them. That’s what that Pantene did (if you compare it with conditioning versions, they are heavily charged with silicones and fatty alcohols). Having just surfactants is one way to do the job. I also found some light polymers used for the same purpose.
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The problem of adding a water soluble/dispersible polymer to an emulsion after the emulsification, is that the polymer won’t be part of the interphase where emulsifiers/fatty acids already started forming a micelle arrangement. The interphase will become more rigid while cooling, so if you add the polymer at this stage, it will end in the free water of the emulsion. It’ll thicken only this free water, and if the case is that this pase has a very different viscosity than the rest of the system, some separation might occur.
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@Margaret How are you measuring pH? I ask, because with that amount to Calcium carbonate, I’d expect the product to be more alkaline. Also, 48% of Glycerine is very high; if you add also the high level of Calcium carbonate, I’d suspect the water activity is low enogh to prevent microbial growth, but you need to know for sure what’s the water activity.
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@zetein Since in bakery water availability is low and starches and proteins require water to behave in a more plastic way, that a humectant has a lower Tg is beneficial, since it will release water at a lower T. Nevertheless, I don’t think this has a practical impact in water-based cosmetics (more water available and high solubility of polyols in water phase).
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@marinaartm When I used in the past Triethyl citrate for a stick formula, I didn’t have much luck, basically, since I needed quite some of that ingredient to get any benefit, but maybe you’ll have more luck. I’d still consider the antibacterial route. I’d give Chlorhexidine undecylenate a shot.
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@Rkunke I don’t have any experience adding CAPB to such formula, but if you add it in the cool down phase (to avoid air), you might be using low shear; since the emulsion system might already start to form and thicken, CAPB wouldn’t have much change to be part of the structure of micelles. On the other hand, if you do mix it vigorously, you might me disrupting and changing the composition of micelles, which can result in the phase separation you see. Try one formula without the CAPB, to see how it goes.
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@Organic890 If you want to have a samilar consistency to Dove Body Wash with your formula, it’d be a bit hard to reach the texture you get with free fatty acids and Hydroxypropyl Starch Phosphate. Also, foam density and creaminess from SCI will also be very hard to reach with your system. Preservation seems not sufficient and not broad spectrum. Finally, if you want to make a shampoo, then you’re missing silicones (especially for detangling).
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@marinaartm I believe @Paprik questions were very fair.
On one hand, pH measurement needs a polar media (like water, which you don’t have in your initial formula). You can have a reading of course, but that would be from a single ingredient (like Glycerine).
Also, Vitamin E alone might not be powerful enough to protect your system, so you might need to consider another AOx.
An emulsifier in a waterless formula is not necessary. But because of the lack of a water phase, Glycerine might not be properly incorporated in your mixture (8% is actually very high), and that might also explain the drops you see.
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Hi @Pasita, I’m from Peru. Unfortunately, the mayority of ingredients we use in the region are imported, mostly from India, China or USA/Europe (the latter are often the specialty chemicals). For the few regional manufacturers of ingredients, I can only think about Brazil (there used to be some in Colombia, but for different reasons, they left).
Nevertheless, it might be cheaper to import anyway.
Good luck!
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Thank you @Perry!
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Are all preservatives effective during the full shelf life of an unopened cosmetic (especificaly, water based)? If not, why isn’t this check-up a normal part of the formulation process?
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@ajw000 Any reason why you have such level of PVP/VA and PVP? Hydrophilic polymers are not always welcomed in some emulsions.
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@Emanuela Dyes are sensitive to pH change, especially Red #4 which is an acid dye. Other conditions can cause color fade/drift, and Red #4 is particularly sensitive to UV light. Can you try making another batch at pH 4 to rule out different pH being the cause? It’d be also nice to know if you have an antioxidant and a UV filter in your formula, and if your package is transparent or opaque.
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@CB007 Not sure if at a pH of 6.5, you’ll have all your Carbomer and Stearic acid neutralized. If the Stearic acid is not fully neutralized, you’ll see overtime, that your oils and waxes will start separating from your system. As mentioned previously in this thread, you should consider using a different emulsifier.
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@VP2020 As @ozgirl mentioned, it’s better if you use reference formulas from known sources, so you dont’s miss many important ingredients in your formula, or overdose some others. For instance, carbonates are way too high (not sure if they’ll ever get to fully dissolve), and there are better ways to sequester metallic ions (carbonates will form precipitates with divalent ions, and form incrustations on fabrics, and lime in your pipes; rather, use chelants like EDTA, NTA, HEDP, etc. which will form soluble complexes). Also, SLS is too expensive (and sensitive to water hardness) to be used in a liquid detergent; usually, LABS or LABS-SLES are used. The amount of Benzoate is also way too high, and might not be suitable for a product that usually have enzymes, that require an almost neutral pH. Again, it’d be better if you start with a formula already in the literature, as a starting point.
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@billichemist What I meant is that you add it right after the oil phase, not once the emulsion is formed. Ideally you add the Amodimethicone in the oil phase, but since it can be not compatible with all ingredients (and depending on the type of amodimethicone, it could undergo self condensation), so a workaround is to add it just right after the oil phase, at the first seconds of the emulsion process has started. Also, which amodimethicone are you using?
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@billichemist I usually add it RIGHT AFTER I poured the oil phase into the water phase, at the start of the emulsion process. Good luck!
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@MarinaReneia The only thing that captured my eye is the Pantothenyl ethyl ether. That, and perhaps the amount of Propanediol (although, it’d feel sticky rather than oily, and at that level it should absorb easily). Good luck!
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I remember there were studies in which Glycerine at 1.45% (w/w) reduced the potency of alcohol based sanitizers (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235715039_Glycerol_significantly_decreases_the_three_hour_efficacy_of_alcohol-based_surgical_hand_rubs), so I’d be very cautious about its dosage. I believe the same applies for PPG. On the other side, Ethylhexylglycerin and Panthenol work well without this drawback.
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@Anasmerixindia58 Usually toilet cleaners are very acid, so they can remove scale and have antimicrobial activity. If you increase pH to 7 pH, you’ll only have a mere surface cleaner (only with high sequestering-buffering power), and as @PhilGeis mentioned, you’ll need a preservative. Now, at very low pH, SLES will hydrolyze (not sure about the acid stability of MES, but I know AOS are commonly use in acid formulations).