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@Lab Do yoi somehow manage to remove the dry shampoo from cat’s skin after application? I’d be a bit worried that it stays there when theyvtend to lick themselves all the time.

@Biocade21 For the sulfate SH, try playing around with the percentage, as someone else suggested…or include an amine oxide (lile Lauramine oxide).

For the sulfate free, replace Decyl glucoside (hard to thicken) by alfa olefin sulfonate, and add also some Cocamide DEA like you did for the first one.

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Paprik said:

ketchito said:

I believe Glyceryl stearate is a non ionic molecule. It sounds like a salt, but it’s in fact an ester 

But he wrote Glyceryl Stearate SE. Which should make it anionic? 

@Paprik My apologies, I didn’t read carefuly. Yes, Glyceryl Stearate SE has some sodium/potassium stearate (soap), which is actually the anionic emulsifier.

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@DaveStone That’s due to mechanical stress  but that’s something you don’t want to intentionally put your hair under. 

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@JonahRay Your emulsifier seems to be ok. Perhaps it’s the level what you should check. Also, palmitates can be a bit irritating (again, depending on the dose).

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I believe Glyceryl stearate is a non ionic molecule. It sounds like a salt, but it’s in fact an ester 

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@Abdullah If you compare both specs, the first one doesn’t have Ammonium chloride (or very little, 0.01%), while the second one has 0.22%. Inorganic chloridez have an impact on CMC of anionic surfactants (they reduce it), and that might explain why the second one has a lower CMC. What surprises me is the vistosity at 25°C of both (there seems to be a missmatch), but well.

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@indieformulator Yes, that’s correct, bit it all depends on the final consistency you want to reach.

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@Lab I’m not an expert on pomades, but you have in your formula a lot of each emulsifier, but no oil phase. Since Cetearet-20 has nothing to emulsify, you’d only see a physical transformation (liquid when melted, gelish when in contact with hot water alone). Also, if you want instant viscosity you should add structuring agents (like fatty alcohols).

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@indieformulator Perhaps you feel that because of the amount of waxes you have. Try replacing some by some of your fatty alcohol.

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@Abdullah I wouldn’t say SLES is stable in hard water. It has less sensitivity to the effect of divalent ions than SLS, but can still be affected. CAPB is for sure insensitive to hard water, and it reduces SLS sensitivity by hindering the high anionic charge (it forms mixed micelles with anionics).

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Just as a side note, even Seinfeld got parabens in his check-list 

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@kajalthakur I’d mix everything at 80°C as well, and add only the Vitamin E below 50°C.

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I believe @PhilGeis point is relevant. When you apply the shampoo in the presence of water, the final pH of the mixture is that of water. Even at low dilution level (like 1:1), water already started raising the pH of the mixture. So it’s very little time that the pH is close to the product’s one (yes, contact time matters).

To make things worse (or better), the viscosity of the product (assuming you apply the product directly and without any water, which would be odd) prevents direct contact of the product’s ingredients with skin (try putting on your finger few drops of liquid sodium hypochlorite vs few drops of gel sodium hypochlorite…..or better not, hehe). 

pH alone (as viscosity alone) gives you only part of the story. What’s most important for the skin from a cleanser (besides allergens) is the denaturing potential of your surfactant, which triggers the later immune response, and that’s when the comment of @MarkBroussard about Decyl glucoside is relevant. Although, we have to keep in mind that in the presence of charged polymers and other surfactants, mixed structures are formed and we can no longer have the effect of a particular surfactant as if it was alone. That’s why amphoterics and cationic polymers reduce the irritation potential of anionic surfactants. 

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

The salt curve is a bell curve…once you exceed optimum…then you lose viscosity.

Generally it is done in small increments…say .1% variations.  I would start with 1%..and work up and down from there…at the .1% variations.  Hehehe….and you can fill a thimble with what I know about this topic…hehehe.

The problem is didn’t get any viscosity at all. 

I will add it in smaller increments next time and see what happens.

@Abdullah Then your system is not too sensitive to salt. I believe your glucoside might have to do with it. I’d reduce the glucoside and increase one of the anionics. You could also add some Betaine to shift the salt curve, so you use less salt to hit a peak.

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Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

@Abdullah I’ve never seen a formula with more than 2% of NaCl. While electrolytes increase the detergency of anionic surfactants, there is a salt curve that dictates how much salt your system can resist, and for that you need to do the tests. Also, since you also have LABSA, don’t forget to put a sample in the fridge.

Thanks 

What is the problem with LABSA and why do i need to test it in fridge if i can ask?

@Abdullah LABSA is more or less hydrophobic (if you compare it to regular anionics, like SLES). When you add salt, there is a point in which it just salts out. You can accelerate the process if you put it in the fridge. If you don’t see turbidity let’s say for a month, you’re fine…but if there’s a problem, you’ll see turbidity even after one day, and eventually, the turbidity will turn into a precipitate that will go to the bottom. One option to improve this is neutralizing with TEA instead of NaOH.

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@ccchem PEG 150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate is part of Crothix Liquid, which can be easily found. You could also try with Versathix or Genapol LT. Also, you can avoid polymers and add Cocamide DEA (or MIPA or MEA), and increase your Betaine. You’ll have a better salt response.

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@Robert It seems there is a problem with your emulsifying system, but it’d be better if you write down your formula.

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@GeorgeBenson I’d be more suspicious about Potassium sorbate, which is known to cause skin reaction. Now, the potassium sorbate/sodium benzoate system itself if not a powerful system. You could add some Benzyl alcohol and EDTA to boost it, and lower the pH a bit more.

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@Abdullah I’ve never seen a formula with more than 2% of NaCl. While electrolytes increase the detergency of anionic surfactants, there is a salt curve that dictates how much salt your system can resist, and for that you need to do the tests. Also, since you also have LABSA, don’t forget to put a sample in the fridge.

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As @Fekher mentioned, the main difference should be the HLB value. For instance, if your PEG stearate is PEG-100 stearate, that one has a higher HLB than the rest, and works better for a different type of emulsion (although, it could also be paired with one of the low HLB emulsifiers for improved stability).

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@kajalthakur At what temperature are you preheating your butters? And at what temperature are you making your final mixture?

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I agree with @PhilGeis. If I’m not mistaken, P&G replaced phosphates long time ago by zeolites in laundry detergents. 

If you want to keep your system, at high pH, you’ll have the basic forms of both EDTA and Citric acid. Moreover, there’s a synergy between them (you can google some info about it), so you can match the performance of STPP (the gold standard before been baned) with a mixture of Na4EDTA and Na Citrate.

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Hi @Perry! Long time ago, I remember I was involved in a shampoo project for dyed hair. We performed half head washes with consumers, and we saw how the water from a commercial product had high concentration of red dye while our prototype’s washing liquor had a very faint color (no significant difference in conditioning systems, but only in surfactants). Of course, this is just ANECDOTAL data and shouldn’t be considered as reliable evidence smile:

Nevertheless, at that time I searched for some info and found the following studies:

1) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339136698_An_ex_vivo_study_of_the_effects_of_co-surfactants_and_conditioning_additives_on_hair_colour_protection
2) https://ualresearchonline.arts.ac.uk/id/eprint/8361/1/Personal_Care_Europe_June_2015.pdf
3) https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulas-products/hair-care/article/21836550/structured-surfactant-systems-for-high-performance-shampoos
4) https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/testing/method-process/article/21836538/assessing-the-impact-of-hair-damage-types-on-color-retention
5) https://library.scconline.org/v060n02/128

Even though the most significant “color protection” effect comes from the use of a polymer (the more hydrophobic, the better), the selection of surfactant or surfactant blend seems to play also an important role. Interestingly, I was watching some lecture as part of TRI’s 9th International Science Conference on Applied Science, and Dr. Trevor Evans mentioned this phenomena, only he didn’t talk about differences between surfactants.    

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@kajalthakur That might be due to blooming (efflorescence) from your butters, and it’s because of different melting points of different fats present. Try preheating your butters sepparately for around 20 min before your main process, and see how it goes.

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I agree with @ngarayeva001. If you check similar formulas from big brands, you’ll see that they use non ionics (like polysorbates or poloxamers) because of their low irritancy. Also, since those formulas are low in surfactants, it’s better to use light oils (natural oils are too heavy….and yes, 10 is too much).