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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Don’t worry, we’re all here to share experience and knowledge.

You don’t need to solubilize Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone. Add it directly to the oil phase, along with your Dimethicone. Also, if you want more viscosity, you could in rease Cereateth-20 (as you mentioned, up to 0.5%) or the BTAC. If you increase the fatty alcohol instead, try to keep the emulsifier/fatty alcohol molar ratio around 1:4 - 1:6.

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I agree with the comments above. It might be the 11% of Decyl glucoside what’s causing the issue. This is a surfactant mostly used in cleansers. 

Also, what’s Lauryl alkyl??

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I believe @Paprik meant by “going down the drain”, that those ingredients won’t have any activity on the skin from a cleanser, which is a rinse off product. I would add Glycerin as one of those not useful ingredients that people put in a cleanser. 

Btw, you mention that you use Sodium hydroxide to help oils and fats lather and foam into a soap. Do you mean body fats? Or the one from your formula (which is your Caprylic/capric triglyceride)? Just in case, fatty alcohols are not considered as fats in surfactant systems (they are structuring agents). 

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Anna_Maria said:

Do you think Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone can cause irritation in shampoo application?

That would be very rare. Cationic silicones are not like cationic surfactants, and being from an emulsion and at normal doses, doesn’t seem to pose a great risk.

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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Final viscosity is reached between 24-48 h from manufacturing, although further increases in viscosity can be observed.

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@SunilHiwarkat1965 This is Unilever’s patent for better reference: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015110511A1/en.

You can add your dimethicone along with the rest of your oil phase at high temperature (usually above 75°C, since you have BTAC). Once in your formula, the silicone will decide either to stick with the rest of the oil phase, or migrate itself to a separate phase. It’s like a relative you bring home, either he chooses to stay with the other kids in the same room, or sneaks to its own room (and you’ll have to speep in the couch). 

Silicones unlike natural oils don’t give a heavy greasy feel, and even less when delivered through an emulsion.

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Abdullah said:

ketchito said:

Abdullah said:

@ketchito only polymers or surfactants too? 

@Abdullah Only polymers, since they are the poly-electrolytes (the ones that have charge, of course).

Will only mixing polymers like xanthan gum and cationic guar make poly-electrolytes complex or it should be mixed in a specific way?

@Abdullah In a specific way, and at specific ratios. You better find some patents or chapter books first. 

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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Silicones are actually emollients by function, and that Dove conditioners use a bit more than 4% of that Dimethicone/Amodimethicone/etc combo (probably made for them). Try one sample with 4% of Dimethicone, so you can feel the difference. If your lamellar network is robust enough, there won’t be any problem (the silicone would go either to the oils phase in case it’s compatible with it, or to a separate liquid silicone-only phase, stabilized by the lamellar arrangement).

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Abdullah said:

@ketchito only polymers or surfactants too? 

@Abdullah Only polymers, since they are the poly-electrolytes (the ones that have charge, of course).

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@GeorgeBenson Most of the air in an emulsionis introduced while it’s liquid. Since yours gets thick very fast, you don’t need to worry much. Btw, are you keeping the temperature high and constante throughout the emulsion process?

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@Abdullah PEC is a complex formed by polymers of different charge.

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@SunilHiwarkat1965 How much Dimethicone are you adding? You need liquid emollients (like Dimethicone) in your formula at enough level to provide spreadability and wet conditioning.

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@BUNSEN87 The question is, controversial to who? All cosmetic ingredients are safe by definition, since they go through a thorough review of evidence before being approved. So, products are already “clean”. Ingredients with changes in restriction are way fewer than the ones that are part of this controversy…and the ones that are banned are even more rare (and are mostly removed out of extra precaution, rather than having a definitive data supporting its lack of safety).

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@milania My pleasure. Just in case, less than seven days for a UV test might be too little. Alwas evaluate some benchmark from the market, to have it as a reference (it they last way more, that might indicate you should tweak your formula to also last as long).

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Thank you @Graillotion, that was very enlightening. 

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@milania Under which conditions did you test for UV exposure, and for how long? Make the same test also with a benchmark, to see if you last the same.

If you already have a UV filter, then the other option is that some free radicals might be forming, for which an antioxidant could be added (Tinogard TL comes to my mind). Also, check if there has been a pH drift, since dyes are pH sensitive.

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@fotis83 There are two ways of using an anionic and a cationic polymer together: 1) by using an amphoteric (like cocamidopropyl betaine) between them, and 2) by forming a polyelectrolyte complexes (PEC) between both type of polymers (Tresemme brand use this technology, so you can check out some patents). 

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@Robert I agree with @Abdullah and @zetein. Find the right amount of PEG-120 that gibes viscosity but doesn’t gel. For instance, try with 1.5 or even 1%, if you still need some viscosity, inctease your Cocamide DEA. You could also do yourself a favor, and wliminate (or drastically reduce) Glycerin. No real benefit and it might be impairing your foam.

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chemicalmatt said:

@GeorgeBenson, it would take an entire seminar here to explain the utility of butylene glycol in cosmetic formulation. A short answer: aside from freeze-point depression, anything propylene glycol can do, butylene glycol does better the only drawback is it costs 3X more than PG. Also, humectant and preservative booster are the two least important characteristics of BG; in fact it does not perform either very well at all.

If I remember correctly, smaller alcohols work better at preservation (like methanol and ethanol), while for humectancy, longer (than BG) chain glycols work better (like pentylene and hexylene glycol).

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SunilHiwarkat1965 said:

sorry for delayed update. @ketchito, I heated CMEA,Cetearyl alcohol together & then added to shampoo batch. This seems to be worked for lab scale batch & also convenient on production scale. The batch is stable, no separation observed. Thank you so much. 

@SunilHiwarkat1965 I’m glad it worked. Good luck!

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Abdullah said:

Typing mistake. 
I prefer behentrimonium chloride, not BTMS. 

BTMS has 75% fatty alcohol. I use less.

BTMS 25 has that amount of fatty alcohol to favor formation of a lamellar network. The best (molar) ratio between emulsifier/fatty alcohol for this model is between 1:4 and 1:6. But maybe you use less fatty alcohol to have a more liquid emulsion.

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@Nahlllailatul Yours is a very tricky formula. You have high levels of electrolytes, very high pH and solvents. You need very specific polymers to thicken thag mixture. Another aproach would be not to use polymers, but surfactants. If you don’t mind having a bit of foam, you could replace some of your CDEA by Cocamidopropyl betaine. The combination gives a nice viscosity, but you need to find the right ratio.

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@Research1 You don’t need to apologize. We are all here to learn and share knowledge 

For better assistance, always share your formula because it’s very hard to give advice if we don’t know how your ingredients are interacting with each other. 

Good luck! 

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@GeorgeBenson Just curious….technically Ceteareth-20 is considered withint the PEGs family, so I don’t know what would the reasoning be to include this one (that I like very much) and not others.

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@Ghita37 I believe you’d benefit more for reading some books, and the asking question. There’s a very nice technical book called Beginning Cosmetic Chemistry. Also, Perry gives very nice courses, as well as few others. From there you can ask specific questions.