JonahRay
Forum Replies Created
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Of course I checked the INCI of the product… but I’m working on replacing the mineral oil obviously.
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Hi @PhilGeis, it’s an anhydrous cleansing balm. It will be packaged in a jar so there is a potential for water to be introduced.
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions! I’ve made a few prototypes with just polymers and I don’t love the final products. I think I’ll give sucrose stearate a try next time I order ingredients!
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Okay, after tons of trial and error and knockouts the issue still persists. I reached out to Wacker for information on their silica dimethyl silylate (HDK H15) - though I use the one from Making Cosmetics. They told me that silica dimethyl silylate is hydrophobic so it can disperse in lipids but its actually the hydrophobicity that allows it to thicken because the resistance to water builds viscosity and therefore it is more appropriate for aqueous systems… They recommended hydrophilic fumed silica (HDK H20). Does anyone know of any suppliers or similar materials on the market for this use? Or honestly am I just crazy… its advertised as an oil gelling agent on Making Cosmetics…
Edit: It looks like possibly Cab-o-sil is an option? Does anyone know where I can purchase this?
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Okay after a plethora of trials - peg-8 dimethicone helps to retain to glycerin in the formula. After knockouts it seems it’s actually the squalane that is separating - likely due to polarity I would think. I have tried multiple ratios of cct, c12-15 alkyl benzoate and squalane but eventually the squalane just separates out in the incubator. Does silica dimethyl silylate not thicken squalane or is the polarity disparity pushing squalane out of the gel? Removing squalane altogether is not the BEST option considering its a marketing point… but maybe I should be swapping cct out for an emollient with the same polarity of squalane?
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For freeze/thaw issues I usually throw in 1% propylene glycol and it takes care of it.
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Pharma said:Just as a ‘nice to know’: Alkyl benzoate is like a HLB emulsifier with a negative value, so to speak. It’s so lipophilic that it does not interact with a water phase but only with the interphase. Meaning, it acts like an emulsifier for different polarity oils and quasi-oils
.That is a very good ‘nice to know’ haha, thank you!
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Okay so, this is what I’m going to try. Several knock out experiments… but I have a feeling replacing some squalane & CCT with C12-15 alkyl benzoate, increasing the amount of tribehenin, replacing the glycerin with dipropylene glycol and reduce the amount as well, could lead to a satisfactory upgrade to the formula. Thanks for everyone’s help!
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MarkBroussard said:@JonahRay
You can get syneresis even with a completely anhydrous formula if the polarity of the oils are substantially different.
I was told once that I could add c12-15 alkyl benzoate to balance the polarity disparity between CCT and squalane for better stability. Do you have any thoughts on that as an option?
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Pharma said:I suspect that it’s a mixture of glycerin and bisabolol .
Why bisabolol? Isn’t it oil soluble?
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@chemicalmatt I will try increasing the tribehenin and see if there is any improvement. I will also try swapping out glycerin for dipropylene glycol.
@MarkBroussard I heat & homogenize for quite a while once adding in the silica dimethyl silylate. There is not much to indicate when is a good time stop. I tried to look up some more information about homogenizing and silica dimethyl silylate but nothing came up.
@ketchito It is a gelled oil balm that replaces conventional petrolatum or vaseline. The glycerin is just there as a bit of humectancy and for skin feel. I understand that it doesn’t seem to fit but I was under the impression that it could be incorporated into the mixture with silica dimethyl silylate but maybe it’s more incompatible than I originally thought.
@Pharma I have peg-8 dimethicone that I could try.
I’m not confident the issue is glycerin, the liquid has a dry oil feel. Is it possible that glycerin is contributing to the problem even if its not what is separating out.
The frustrating thing with this product is no matter how many stability tests I’ve done it always passes with flying colours but then I get customer reports & pictures of it seeping… it doesn’t seem to be heat related as I have customers in very hot climates who say theirs are all good (also it always passes test in an incubator).
Of my whole product collection - this is the one that gives me the most grief…
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@chemicalmatt I can’t be completely sure but the liquid seeping out is thin and greasy, not sticky. I can try your suggestion out though as I have some dipropylene glycol on hand. Would propylene glycol work as well (I keep this in stock in larger quantities)?
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It’s a semi solid oil-gel.
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@MarkBroussard Jeez I feel like it’s so unclear with the FDA whereas Health Canada lays it out it in a table haha. Okay so a 1% SA serum with claims of exfoliation is a cosmetic according to the FDA (sorry to clarify one last time)?
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@Camel I guess I find it confusing because it doesn’t seem like the majority of products are registered drugs like the SA serums from The Ordinary for example. I wonder though is it a similar situation like in Canada where the claims do have an effect on the classification - drug claims or cosmetic claims.
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This is just water and HEC, so 1% HEC in water.
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I usually make sure it’s less than 7 but I only go based on what is required out of the ingredients and especially the preservative. I see a lot of consumers who test the pH of their products and then decide whether the product is good or bad based on just that when in reality they have no idea why as a chemist we even care about pH. Whenever a consumer asks me to talk about pH I consider it something for the chemist to know and not for the consumer but of course it’s been made into a marketing story as if we haven’t been using exfoliating acids or bar soap forever now…
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@singhc10 I actually have Polyamide-3 on hand! Thank you for this suggestion I’ll give it a try!
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Dr Catherine Pratt said:Clays like Kaolin or Bentonite, white diatomaceous earths, or you could use Zinc Oxide or Titanium Dioxide. All of these will add to opacity.Hope this helps. Cheers Catherine
This might be a dumb question but if I use zinc oxide for opacity, I don’t have to worry about the regulations regarding sunscreens right? That’s only if I’m making claims towards sun protection?
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You probably don’t even need to preserve it but you could just use potassium sorbate to just prevent mold. I also don’t think sodium phytate is necessary in this case either because you aren’t having to protect the surfactant system when it’s in this format.
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One of these ingredients impart a quite sweet scent (almost like unripe banana). Does anyone know which it maybe be? None seem to have it in their raw form and it isn’t apparent until the product has cooled completely (like the next day for example).
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Graillotion said:In your heading….you mentioned condensation…. Chemical Matt had a good comment in another thread…which reminded me… You might consider adding some glycols. That can only help….in so many ways.
I usually stir them in at the end of cool down…with fragrance and preservative….be warned…there is a brief…OH CRAP…moment when you think you’ve destroyed your emulsion….but don’t worry…it looks good again with 30-40 seconds of hand stirring.
I haven’t had the same condensation issue so far but I do recall seeing that comment. I will take this approach if need be!
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@Graillotion finally got my hands on glyceryl stearate citrate and looks like the problem has been solved (into the incubator it goes). I also increased 68MB to 4% and also added in some tribehenin - thank you so much for the advice!
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Like @Perry mentions, you really have to build up your audience. With my business I’ve had the most success by creating a little community and actually befriending a lot of my customers through social media. I actually talk with a lot of them on a daily basis. It also helps to make friends with other small business owners! PS. I use the word success very loosely though haha.
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Interesting… I know you can create microemulsions with these surfactants + polyols + water but its such a small amount at 0.5%. I tried it and it didn’t have much effect on texture or anything that I could tell so I wondered if it was for other reasons. Thank you!
