johnb
Forum Replies Created
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The technical difference between behentrimonium chloride and behentrimonium methosulfate (BTMS) is the nature of the anion which has little or no influence on the conditioning properties of the compounds.
The practical difference between behentrimonium chloride and behentrimonium methosulfate (BTMS) is that the latter is usually a semi-compounded product comprising a 50/50 mixture of the named material together with cetearyl alcohol and sometimes a glycol. For this reason, for most purposes, it can be considered that BTMS is half as effective as behentrimonium chloride.
BTMS as normally available (i.e the mixture) can be formulated into a simple conditioner by mixing with hot water and stirring whilst cooling.
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It ALL depends on what is in the contract(s) between the various parties and who owns the IP in the form of a legal document.
Be very aware though of what happens in the real world. If you market a new “unique” cosmetic product you can guarantee that (if it is considered by competitors worthwhile to do so) a close copy of your cherished invention will be on the market within a very short time.
Having spent many years in the perfumery industry I know that some perfumery businesses exist almost solely on producing copies of any and all new fragrances that are introduced on to the market and then modifying them to suit almost any end use. One example was that a Calvin Klein CK1 look-alike (smell-alike) perfume was very quickly adopted as the “standard” fragance in liquid handwash products. Going back further to the1920’s, and the first “modern” perfume, Chanel No5 was followed few years later by a copy by Coty called L’Aiment. Modern instrumental analytical techniques mean that very close copies can be created in a very short time even though there may be hundreds of ingredients.
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The gracefruit page gives a CAS number of 91079-14-0 which identifies the material as palm oil stearins - that is palm oil which has had the more liquid components removed see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_stearin
The big problem with substituting one brand for another with this type of material is that, being a mixture, it can have widely varying properties and some brands/grades may not suitable for your end use.
As the starting material originates in Africa possibly there are some palm oil processors there who can help.
There are a number of other materials which will thicken oils.
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Ah! but this is a deo stick, not a soap bar with only a small proportion of soap to act as a stiffening/gelling agent.
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I am curious as to how talc or maltodextrin can replace a polyol in a soap based stick in order to avoid syneresis. I have not seen this done before.
I only ask because I want to know.
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try encapsulation perhaps cyclodextrin
????
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and “pay peanuts, get monkeys”.
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You seem to be ignoring capsaicin as a source of skin irritation. Remember this material is the active principle of the chili pepper and even minute amounts applied to the skin can produce profuse irritation, burning and erythema.
As a point of fact, gaultheria oil (wintergreen oil) comprises over 90% methyl salicylate and Cinnamonum camphora oil contains about 50% camphor. The product you describe will have a very strong fragrance redolent of a sports locker room. Similar formulations have been available (in the UK, at least) for about 100 years or more for the relief of pain from sports injuries, arthritis and muscular pain.
CBD & THC are very bulky molecules and I am extremely doubtful that they will have any effect at all when applied to the skin. The way to find out is to produce samples with and without the materials in question.
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Always remember the adage “you get what you pay for”.
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Why use cetyl alcohol and cetearyl alcohol - they are effectively the same thing?
I think the solids content is too high for a hair conditioner and the lipid content far too high. Likewise 6% cationics will most likely cause a noticeable overconditioning and a floppy or waxy coating effect. A poin of interest: fabric conditioners only contain 4 - 6% cationic and 100ml or so is sufficient to condition a washload of several kilos of laundry - far more than a head of hair
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What are the esthetics of this product?
Is there a difference in the cosmetic effects of the product both with and without the lactobacilli?
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A little bit of a tip: Place the stirrer off-centre in the mixing vessel i.e more to one side than the other. This will give a more efficient mixing action. Have the stirrer speed set so that the vortex reaches about half way down the shaft. Never have the vortex reaching the blade - this will result in foaming which, in a concentrated detergent product, can be very persistent.
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In my days in soap the way of measuing the titre (melting point) of the fatty acids released in soap was to decompose a soap solution with acid, allow the fatty acids to float to the top and then quickly insert a stick thermometer through the fatty layer.
The fat coated thermometer was then placed in a water bath where the temperature was slowly increased until the fatty coat just melted. The temperature was noted.
There are more modern instrumental techniques now.
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- - - and the formula is?
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I can’t imagine a conventional commercial toilet soap base withstanding the addition of any substantial amount of solids (not soap) and remaining suitable for further processing into bars.
I recall when I was in the soap making business there was a process where soap base was milled with soda ash (sodium carbonate - I know it’s not the same thing as the bicarbonate) to enable the soap to be easily ground to powder for the manufacture of soap based laundry powders.
Why do you want to make this mix?
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The first one is more suited to making emulsion products where a “cutting” action is required.
The second is suited to gentle mixing of miscible liquids - just what you want to achieve.
The third is a high shear mixer - completely unnecessary (and unsuitable) for your process.
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What are the in-use spreading properties? Brittle failure suggests to me that the stick would be very unpleasant to use.
Castor oil as the major oil phase in what is basically a lipstick formula is difficult to improve on.
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What is the purpose of the Triglycerol Monolaurate? It is not a common material and I don’t see that is has any advantages over more widely used components. Or should it read glyceryl monolaurate or even glyceryl trilaurate?
Why use stearic acid?
The inclusion of a coupling agent such as ceteareth 20 could help with the syneresis.
Which of the ingredients is the active deodorant material?
I don’t understand the relevance of the comment regarding the melting point of propanediol.
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Thanks for letting us know.
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Modified in what way?
Elaeis guineensis is the palm species that provides palm oil. Do you mean hydrogenated palm oil?
Remember that Google is your friend. Look out hydrogenated palm oil suppliers
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For 2nd hand books my first call is normally Amazon (Amazon Marketplace) where they have a very large collection of books available from a number of 2nd hand book dealers (one of them, Abe Books, is an Amazon company). Next I look in Google where there are loads of dealers. The good thing about most dealers is that if they don’t have a particular title in their own stock, they will point you to a seller who has.
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I appreciate that SCI is not the same as SLMI but the latter seems almost impossible to obtain in the quantities you are thinking about - that is why I showed SCI as being a near equivalent.
Considering the difficulty in SLMI availability, have you considered SCI as your SLES replacement?
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Sunstone You are ignoring the most fundamental aspect of all commerce - that is that income must exceed expenditure. Allured publishing was, and is, a commercial organisation and if a part of that organisation is losing money - as instanced by the books division in this case - then the only remedy after careful consideration is to close it.
Anyway, to try to mollify you somewhat:
I know it isn’t a hard (paper) copy but you might use a printer and prepare that yourself.
You could also look amongst the numerous secondhand book dealers that populate the Internet. I have bought numerous out of print books that way.
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I knew Stan Allured (the father of Allured publishing) having met him at numerous conferences in the 1970’s - 1980’s. I remember him saying about giving up the book publishing side of the business as he had more or less filled the marketplace with Allured book titles. There were very few outlets of further sales and books were becoming something of a burden. The Allured magazines were a different story, though, and he could maintain a good business by being very up to date in reporting developments in the industry.
At this time the subscriptions to the main magazines (C&T and P&F) were quite costly (but highly respected) and this, with the advertising, provided the Allureds with a nice steady income. Remember this was well before the days of cyberspace.
The situation now is that Internet versions of the magazines are effectively free to the reader, being paid for entirely by advertising, but also very up to date with news items from the industry being sent to subscribers on an almost daily basis - this, the advertisers like!
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My choice of viscosity modifier and stabiliser for a formulation such as yours would be xanthan gum, a guar derivative or hydroxyethylcellulose.