Home Cosmetic Science Talk General Requests / Opportunities Need custom formula skin care with probiotics

  • Need custom formula skin care with probiotics

    Posted by probioticqueen on January 26, 2016 at 3:38 pm
    I am looking for a chemist / company to custom formulate a skin care product line with probiotic with the purposes of applying it topically to skin for skin issues such as acne, fungus etc.

    Please let me know if you can refer me to a cosmetic chemist to create this formula for me. 
    eisen replied 6 years, 11 months ago 9 Members · 34 Replies
  • 34 Replies
  • belassi

    Member
    January 26, 2016 at 8:56 pm

    You’re talking about an OTC drug rather than a cosmetic, as far as the USA is concerned, and at the least a ‘cosmeceutical’ in other countries, and therefore my first question is, what is the target market location?

  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 26, 2016 at 9:31 pm

    Actually, this is indeed a cosmetic product.  The “Probiotic” is simply plant oligosaccharides that are spray dried onto Maltodextrin and complexed with Lactobacillus.  The marketing gimmick makes it sound way more …. microbiological.

  • belassi

    Member
    January 26, 2016 at 11:47 pm

    I thought that anything that claimed to treat acne was an OTC drug in the USA? Am I wrong?

  • oldperry

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 12:28 am

    You are correct. If @probioticqueen makes any drug claims like anti-acne or anti-fungal then it is an OTC and probiotics can only be included as claims ingredients.

  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 1:04 am

    The only way @probioticqueen can make anti-acne OTC drug claims is if her products contain one of the four OTC Monograph acne actives … Sal Acid, Resoucinol, Sulfur or Benzoyl Peroxide … in the allowed percentage ranges and/or combinations.

    Lyophilized Lactobcillus “Probiotic” will have no effect on acne whatsoever and is not approved as an OTC anti-acne drug active ingredient.  It can, however, be included in a product that contains one of the four Monograph anti-acne topicals, such as 2% SA, but it is the SA that gives the right to make the OTC drug claim.  The Probiotic is just another cosmetic ingredient in that product.
  • chemist77

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 8:36 am

    @probioticqueen

    Check CLR, they have some good ones.
  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 12:26 pm

    @Chemist77:

    Here is the thing that is absolutely hysterical about the marketing gimmick of putting “Probiotics” (Lactobacillus) in cosmetic products … just how is it that the Lactobacillus survives your preservation system in your cosmetic product to then replicate on the surface of the skin and “crowd out” natural microflora?
    Simple answer:  It won’t … the Lactobacillus will be “killed” by the preservative in your product!
  • probioticqueen

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 7:16 pm

    @chemist77 thank you what is CLR?

    @markbroussard no intention of making any claims - I am fully aware of the FDA regulations and this is indeed a cosmetic not an OTC- I just need the appropriate source to help indicate the correct strains to use that can help with skin disorders.
  • probioticqueen

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 7:18 pm

    also my understanding is that its Bacillus coagulans genus with a pH of 4.0-4.5 

  • belassi

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 7:40 pm

    It’s quite tempting to make a really thick natural yoghurt and market it as “Magic Lactic Skin Paradise Probiotic Yogbog.”

  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 27, 2016 at 9:44 pm

    @probioticqueen:

    Here you go, I think this is what you’re looking for:
    There are a couple of other companies besides CLR that make Probiotic Complex cosmetic ingredients.  Hope that helps.
    Beware however of companies that are making claims of their Probiotic bacteria growing on the skin … That is wholly false.
  • chemist77

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 3:19 am

    @MarkBroussard

    I completely agree with you in general but isn’t there anyone who must have raised this query to the manufactures of such ingredients???? I mean even the companies are selling them as preserved so I am wondering how is it possible to sell a deactivated active?????
    Case in point Repair Complex CLR PF preserved with phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate. 
  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 12:11 pm

    @Chemist77:

    That is exactly my point.  The Probiotic bacteria that have been deactivated and lyophilized (freeze dried) will reconstitute when placed in the formulation, but once reconstituted would be destroyed by the preservative.  So, what you essentially end up with are dead bacteria in your formulation.  They will not grow on your skin once applied.  And, some manufacturers are marketing that the Probiotic bacteria will grow on your skin and crowd out the skin’s natural flora!
    Now, I have seen a couple of more reputable suppliers who are still advertising their concoction as “Probiotic” but are honest enough to state that their ingredient is actually a purified concoction of processed Probiotic bacterial cellular material.
    Some suppliers must be outright lying and others are playing up the “Probiotic” language … 
  • probioticqueen

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 12:33 pm
    I have to ask then, how is Bonicel and CLR being marketed to manufacturers as an ingredient in skin care that has proven to:
    The inclusion of Bonicel was found to: 

    Decrease the number of coarse skin lines by 20.57%
    Show a 17% increase in the number of subjects showing improvement of eye area fine lines & wrinkles
    Show a 8.33% increase in the number of subjects showing improvement of under eye puffiness
    Increase skin hydration by 7.13%
    Decrease skin shadows by 7.09%
    Increase skin smoothness by 4.33%
    Increase skin elasticity by 3.11%
  • markbroussard

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 1:23 pm

    @probioticqueen:

    The point is not that their ingredients do not provide benefits.
    The point is that some companies in this space, ingredients suppliers and consumer products manufacturers alike, are implying or outright stating in their marketing that the “Probiotic” ingredients are actually live bacteria that will replicate on the consumer’s face when the cosmetic product is applied.  If the cosmetic product and/or ingredient is preserved, that simply cannot happen under any circumstances.  And, if your end product is not preserved, well you have a whole other problem altogether … your product will get contaminated on use.  The manufacturer of Bonicel even point out the false advertising by their competitors in their marketing material for Bonicel as a point of differentiation.
    The use of the word “Probiotic” implies live bacterial cultures … these ingredients are not live bacterial cultures … they are bacterial cellular material that has been purified.  
  • chemist77

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 2:57 pm

    Thanks Mark that is some great insight, appreciated much. 

  • bobzchemist

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 3:19 pm
    First off, there’s this from Bonicel’s FAQ:
    Is Bonicel a probiotic?
    Bonicel is a probiotic-derived ingredient. It is derived from the an optimized form of GanedenBC30’s fermentation broth. Although a probiotic organism produces Bonicel, Bonicel is not a probiotic.
    So, you see that it is important to pay careful attention to the exact wording of the advertisements from the people selling these products. 

    The CLR material plays a similar trick that’s even harder to catch: 
    PROBIOBALANCE CLR™ NP
    ProBioBalance CLR™ NP supplies the skin cells with nutritive elements and allows for the activation of detoxification processes to obtain raw materials for the production of new molecules (e.g. proteins) and energy. As a result, the metabolic activity of skin cells is increased, the skin’s immune system is strengthened and the skin is protected against environmental stress.

    Characteristic: ProBioBalance CLR™ NP consists of probiotic bifido cultures, suspended and disintegrated in a biologically active milk-based matrix.
    INCI-Name: Water, Lactose, Milk Protein, Bifida Ferment Lysate

    True, they are selling probiotic cultures, but what they are selling is disintegrated cultures - there’s nothing alive left in there at all. But they’re being pretty careful not to say that too loudly. 


    This is a useful article:
  • oldperry

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 3:26 pm

    @probioticqueen - There are a wide variety of ways in which a company can make impressive sounding claims that don’t matter or may not even be true.  Here are some explanations for their claims. 

    1.  They compare their ingredient in a standard lotion versus a non-treated control.  In this case, the lotion is actually providing the benefit but they attribute it to the ingredient.
    2.  They find non-statistically significant differences. Positive results can be just randomness. Without a confidence level given the numbers don’t mean much of anything.
    3.  They report differences that don’t matter.  What does it mean that skin smoothness is increased by 4.33%?  Would you notice if your skin was 4.33% smoother?  And would you notice is 7% change in your skin elasticity?
    I’m not suggesting that the company is lying.  However, I’m suggesting that the claims being made are not nearly as impressive as they seem or that they necessarily have anything to do with the inclusion of a probiotic. 
  • probioticqueen

    Member
    January 28, 2016 at 3:57 pm

    I agree and understand all of your points and thank you all for the feedback. I am still wondering then, is it possible to use probiotics in some form (ferments?) in skin care that actually are effective for fighting the bad bacteria- or at the very least, good for the skin? in other words, so many of the big name companies like clinique, estee lauder, loreal that are now claiming that the probiotics in their products are effective for reduction redness and smoothing skin etc  are simply adding in the extracts of bifidus?

    There is a manufacturer called Chrisal that claims that their “stabilized” spor form probiotics are wha cleared staff infections in hospitals when used as a cleaning product, so they claim that same technology of the spore form probiotic of bacillus genus can also help with skin issues when applied topically.
     does this make sense?
  • microformulation

    Member
    February 1, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    Germane to the whole issue, here is an article that came up in my Twitter feed. Perry is prominently mentioned.

    http://www.agirlsgottaspa.com/2016/01/probiotic-skin-care-miracle-ingredient-or-marketing-hype/

  • oldperry

    Member
    February 2, 2016 at 5:05 am

    Basically, there is not enough known about the “good bacteria” and the “bad bacteria” on skin. Companies are marketing science that isn’t well understood. 

    For example, no one knows how much good bacteria you need or what the effect of removing all bad bacteria has on skin. Big companies use the term “probiotic” because it seems like some scientific concept that consumers have heard (from food) and generally have good feelings about. 
    But no one knows much about what characteristics the skin microbiome should have or not have.
    You have to carefully read the claims that the Big Guys are making. They word it in such a way that it seems like the benefit is linked to the technology when in actuality they are linking the formula to the benefit.
    For example, “This formula, made with probiotics, smooths skin by 75%”
    A claim like this is not a lie but the “made with probiotics” part is not really relevant to supporting the claim.  The claim is really “This formula smooths skin by 75%”.  Which is what any moisturizer will do whether it has probiotics or not.
  • markbroussard

    Member
    February 2, 2016 at 2:10 pm

    @Perry:

    That is a very informative post.  The skin biome is the natural collection of bacteria that grow on the skin and the bacterial populations maintain a relative balance and in normal skin keep each others’ population in check.  There really isn’t a good way to differentiate, with a cosmetic topical product, between the “good” and the “bad” bacteria.  All bacteria in the biome perform some vital function.  It is when the balance of bacteria get out of whack that problems occur.
    While the claim may not be a lie because of clever wording …. these marketers KNOW they are indeed misleading.  In my book, if you know you’re misleading … you’re just plain lying.
  • probioticqueen

    Member
    February 2, 2016 at 7:29 pm

    Im curious what your thoughts are on this product:

    They claim that they have 12 different strains yet its in water so therefore it cant be live bacteria  or the water would kill the bacteria right?

  • oldperry

    Member
    February 2, 2016 at 8:23 pm

    @probioticqueen - I personally wouldn’t buy or recommend any cosmetic product that doesn’t list their ingredients.  Putting “proprietary blend” on their ingredient list is very shady business.

    You also have to look specifically at what they are claiming.  My comments in red.
    “Probiotics are well recognized for protection the gut’s microflora and supporting the body’s immune system. (not relevant to skin product) But did you know that these friendly beneficial bacteria can also help the skin maintain its barrier and function (what does “help” mean? not defined so it can mean anything) and keep dermal cells healthy?  When sprayed directly on affected area, LiviaOne Probiotics Spray goes to work colonizing to crowd out bad bacteria, fungus, yeast and other pathogens that would disrupt your skin’s derma (this is a very specific claim but no proof is given. Also, it’s unlikely as every individual has a different skin microbiome.  Also, what does “disrupt your skin’s derma” mean?).  Our 12-Strains of symbiotic probiotics spray can help the skin stay balanced, calmer and more resistance to aging (no specific claim and no proof.  How do you balance skin?), plus they are USDA Certified Organic. (this doesn’t mean much
    According to our customers (anecdotal evidence is irrelevant), this is ideal for people who suffer from roasea, rashes, scrapes, cuts, staph-type infections, nose, eye or ear infections, athlete’s foot, jock itch, ringworm, and yeast infections.  

    LiviaOne Topical Probiotics can benefit as:

    Protective Shield - not a specific claim. What is the diff between protected & non-protected skin? 
    Antimicrobial Properties - this would make it a drug
    Calming Effect - puffery, means nothing
    Natural Skin Balance - puffery, means nothing
    Dental Caries - this would make it a drug - and why would this matter for a skin product?
    USDA Certified Organic - to assure quality and safety - no it doesn’t.
    So, in my view it is a $50 product that doesn’t do anything.
  • belassi

    Member
    February 3, 2016 at 12:10 am

    Actually, if it CAN colonise the skin and displace any kind of native flora and fauna, then who is to assume that the “bad” bacteria are going to suffer? Maybe the “good” ones will be displaced! What total BS.

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