[jemolian]

What other ways can i use to gauge there is a demand for my cleansing oil aside from survey that are not expensive?  

The other way that is not expensive is to talk to someone that already knows the answer you need.

Then you said Or choose one your brand concept stands for.Im not sure i understand what you mean ” choose one my brand stands for? 

This is open for interpretation. If you don’t get it then there’s not much need to look to deep into this.

so if i interview 30 girls and all say we use cleansing oil then no need to do a balm and vice versa right? 

Yes. 

Potential pattern & frequency of product usage ( WHY IS this important Jemolian please ?)

This affect the demand of the product. If they don’t use it as often, you don’t need to produce such as large batch. 

Global or local events affecting product usage and sales due to user requirements ( can you pls give an example? )

It’s already part of my story / analogy. 

So here you mean i should analyze their answers and based on that decide on which product i will develop: a balm or an oil correct?

Yes. At this point, you are just circling around the idea too much. I’m not sure why you are doing that. 

You said i can target Gen z if my product fits their needs and budget.But we know in marketing that by trying to sell to everyone you end up selling to none. 

Realistically if you sell to none, then there’s no demand for your product. If product can appeal to different people, sometimes outside of your target demographic. If the percentage of those people increase, you are telling me that you don’t intend to market to them to increase sales? 

This is the part where i’m stuck the most? Should i go ahead and make a small batch and test the market or should I as per @Jemolian survey the audience then make the product? 

It’s up to you. If you insist on launching the cleansing oil, you can go ahead to find a suitable place to distribute the samples and get feedback. If you want to plan the development, you can survey then provide the samples to the survey group. 

even if i request feedback they might say things that will make me happy such as : oh i loved your oil but in reality they didnt. Imagine if i go ahead and produce based on their positive yet misleading feedback.

It depends on the people and culture. You should know your people well enough. 

Because people could try my product but this is not an indicator as to whether there is a demand for the product. They are trying for free not buying. Im trying to think of it from different angles to be as efficient as possible:) 

Which is why you survey the people before you given them any samples if you intend to. Then give them the sample, if that is next step, then survey again. 

[jemolian]

1-You said products are normally developed for ppl who require or demand them.So how will i know makeup users will demand or require  cleansing oil? 

Through your survey. Or create both. Or choose one your brand concept stands for. There’s always a reason you can find or make up.

2-You said so i need to know what my products solve: 
i don’t feel these questions are good because what if they don’t use a cleansing oil in the first place?
Yu said i can ask them: do you use an oil based cleanser? doesn’t this sound a bit biased? instead can i be general…
So is it okay to ask: what do you wash your face with to remove makeup? 

Regarding this, you can create a question flow. The survey structure can be general, then go more in depth with each product. There are a lot of questions that can be asked, but it depends if the person has enough time or is willing to spend time answering. 

For example: Do you use any skincare products, including cleansers or just soap for cleansing? (If yes) How many products and which of them do you use the in AM / PM? What are the concerns you are trying to address with the products? 

For example of in depth; for example if the person uses a toner: For the toner, why do you use it? Which brand are you using? Why do you choose or why do you prefer that particular product? Have you used and previous toners or similar products before? How does it compare? 

Other non product related question examples: Where do you get product recommendations? (Example, word of mouth from friends, dermatologist, esthetician, etc, social media, youtube, reddit, etc?) Are there anything about the brand of products you are using that interests you? (Example, eco friendly, natural, organic, indie brand, local brand, cruelty free, vegan, glass packaging, long lasting performance, shows results, recommended by influencer, etc?)

3-you said a person may choose to use a cleansing balm for the convenience it offers vs an oil. 
You also said during covid demand for balm decreased then it picked up again once restrictions were lifted-is it only for balm or cleansing oils as well? 

This is just an example. The main point of the story or analogy is just to point out a few things: 

• Preference in product; why oil vs balm
• Potential pattern & frequency of product usage
• Global or local events affecting product usage and sales due to user requirements

You need to look and interpret base on what they mention in the survey as they can help you to prioritize products for development and launch based on demographic demands. 

Once again this means talking to makeup users and seeing what they cleanse their skin with right? (answer number 1 above) 

That is right. Overall surveying more people from your demographic will help to determine the priority. 

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Regarding the Gen Z, you can also target them if your products fit their needs or budget. Though sometimes products are shared by multiple people in the family. 

About the women who live the night life, they are one of the segment or market for cleansing oils or balms or makeup removing products in general, which can steer your marketing that way. It’s about relatability. Sometimes besides from budget, it’s also about ease of use. 

[jemolian]

So for product performace you only do reviews on ingredients and do sample tests with your staff only? and then what happens if their answers are satisfactory? you go straight to the market and start promoting?  And if their feedback is not satisfactory, what do you do? 

For me, there are a few steps that i do: 

1. Sourcing, for example visiting Cosmoprof, online, etc
2. Reviewing product information on their site inclusive of USP, price point, availability locally if any distributors, ingredients list. The USP of the brand can include the brand concept, such as natural derived, organic, promotion of product biodegradability / recycling, country specific such as Korean, Taiwan, etc, founded or co-created by a doctor, etc. The USP of the products can be high percentages of known ingredients, award winning from institutes / bodies / magazine, with very good testimonials or reviews based on performance in country of origin, made in specific locations such as Jeju island, ingredients sourced from specific locations, using unique ingredients, etc
3. I will then contact the brand and ask for the MOQ and supply price. 
4. If MOQ and price fit our requirement, samples will be purchased and tested for feedback with our office staff. I will look at the feedback, evaluate and ask further questions to determine if product is worth importing. 

For example, we currently distribute 2 brands. One of the brand, i will refer to as brand H, is founded by a doctor and is known for high percentages of known ingredients. For one of the product types, the sheet mask, we are selling brand H’s. Another of our brand, brand P, recently launched a similar product. They ask if we want to sell their sheet mask. Sheet mask prices are relatively close for both brands. 

Upon staff testing, the feedback from one of them is that the mask material crinkles, the hydration performance is average. The other testers’ feedback is that the material is fine on her face, the performance doesn’t stand out. 

I haven’t really decided if i want to recommend importing the sheet mask or not but the probability is not very high due to performance concerns. Also because we already have a range from brand H, though it may still be imported ultimately because of brand expansion of brand P, which may be due to our management & recommendations from brand P as we are their distributor.  

Regarding product satisfaction, it depends on whether you can accept. Everyone’s expectations and preferences are different, you can only take a more objective approach. 

[jemolian]

Then comes the question why using a cleansing oil and not a cleansing balm?( because the target might ask me that; why should i use your oil and not buy me a balm)? so id say a balm is takes more time, less hygienic and not very convenient to use on the eye area and eyelashes if you wear mascara. do you think its good ? Then why using my oil? id say rich in ingredients that are non comedogenic, gentle emulsifier that wont irritate your skin that need lots of care.But these are features and people don’t care about features they care about benefits.So here i get stuck alone in this. 

The reason to use your oil depends on your marketing. You need to create attractive marketing to sell the USP (unique selling point) of your product. That will be where your brand concept / philosophy, or product performance / aesthetics, or other factors comes in.

face scrub solves the problem of skin dullness, good at promoting fast cell turnover, . He said skin dullness is not a problem, it is a consequence of something that happened.So i tried to figure out and whatever i would say would never be the right answer. 

Question would be, does your demographic still use physical exfoliants? It depends if your demographic has moved to chemical exfoliants. What is the demand for a scrub, how does your stand out? 

Quite many people can face dullness issues so it’s relatively common, so how does your product solve it compare to others? What else besides from dullness?  

But im still not comfortable with my answers.Also as a marketing expert that you are in the field of cosmetics, do you consider dullness, skin irritation, bad blood flow to be problems? Because this mentor would tell me these are not problems and id say: of course these are problems for our audience and hed say: you should think as a business person not as your audience. 

I won’t consider myself a marketing expert, but i will have to evaluate most of the products that are selected for distribution for many department. 

There needs to be demand by customers or products that are general enough for the audiences that has a USP. 

I’ll consider dullness, skin irritation as common products nowadays. You can just develop products that include ingredients to address those issues. It’s hard to have the USP of the products just for these issues as they won’t stand out. About the bad blood flow, i’d assume that would be one of the causes for dark eye circles, there are ingredients for that but it would normally be an eye cream or gel product. Normal bad blood flow is not really addressed in cosmetics. 

So if i want to emulate your methods and check my cleansing oil performance, how do you suggest me to do it?

You can look for people around you and ask if there are people to suggest that you can survey. You can also ask if they are interested to be your beauty testers with a contract before testing. 

Also to that same mentor i once asked him what he thinks of surveys and he said this is the least honest and trustworthy source of information as they are so BIASED. 

Yes, it will be biased so you need more data to get a trend. It’s up to you to decide if that biased is also a demand that you can sell to. Weird thing to say, but a good businessman can sell anything to anyone. 

[jemolian]

( my questions should be focused on the products i intend to make) because otherwise they will tell me about other things that i’m not going to develop now, do you agree here? Based on their feedback i will adjust the products. So if all makeup users that i would interview tell me we dont use cleansing oil to remove our makeup then okay my cleansing oil wont be a good product to continue working on. 

Yes and no. It really depends on how much information you ask and how it can help you to develop your product range. Data collected now will help you with planning the products for future expansion of the range. Most of the time, brands may develop a series of products, for example, a cleanser, toner, serum, cream, etc. Some smaller brands with lesser funding may launch less products such as just 1 or 2 that are their signature product to fit a demand or niche. 

Here are some examples

• A small range - https://www.lessentialglobal.com/
• 1 or 2 products - https://malezia.com/products/urea-moisturizer

Also i used to have a business mentor but things didn’t click well.He would ask me: what problems do your three products solve ( sunscreen, face scrub, cleansing oil) 

Products are normally developed and sold to people who require or demand them, so you need to know what they solve. The answer you give won’t be the exact answer because it’s open question, you can look at the demands of the demographic again. 

For example questions you can think about or ask them can be like this; do they use an oil based cleansing product? Oil cleanser or balm? Why? How often? Price range or price per ML? 

Example, a person may choose to use a cleansing balm because they prefer a product that they can manage on their palm instead of the oil where it can be too runny and hard to manage. They can melt the balm on the hand and gentle rub it on their face to remove the makeup or sunscreen that they use. During the pandemic period where they are working from home or require to wear masks, they require less of the product as they don’t require to use makeup or sunscreen. Demand for the product has picked up again as the restrictions has been lifted. 

with water based i feel that you have to exert more pressure on your skin to completely remove the makeup or sunscreen or whatever is on your skin.Do you agree?

It depends, as long as the product provides sufficient glide, it would be fine. People has different preferences so there are demands for different types of products. You can choose to develop a cleansing product of any type which can range from cleansing oil, cleansing balm, micellar water, micellar cleansing gel, cleansing milk / lotion / cream, cold cream, etc. It depends on your budget and if you see any need to develop either one or at all. It may also be part of your marketing, such as a BHA cleanser for example for an anti blemish range of product. 

[jemolian]

It’s more of a repair ingredient, so i’m not surprised that it hasn’t given you any “ah hah” moments. 

Luckily my colleague is going back to her parent’s house in thailand next week, i can ask her to bring back my order 

[jemolian]

In the end did you buy the ceramides from there? 

[jemolian]

It looks like you have your demographics down. Did you talk to or survey them to get a gauge of the products they will use? Getting to know more will help with getting to know their routine, types of product preference, budget, feedback on products used, things to note for improvements vs competitors’, etc. 

As a marketing person, currently my department deals with cosmetics / skincare as one of the special projects in my department, so when reviewing brands and products, i’m mainly the one to do it. 

In terms of evaluation, normally my preference is to look at potential product performance. Brands already have they vision / philosophy down, so i don’t need to over review that as long as it fits our general criteria. For product performance, ingredients list review and sample tests will be conducted with our staff in our office. I’ll collect feedback regarding all of the aspects of the products, including the price, performance (short & long term), smell, packaging, and other feedback they would like to give including the products that used when testing with the product.  

So no need to aadd things such as vitamin c and hyaluronic acid or green tea extract? Also i have one tiny concern here which is olive oil, wont it clog pores of acne prone skins or oily skins? 

One thing to note would be the budget as it relates to the cost of the product. It affects the potential margin. You can use it to work backwards towards the maximum cost which will affect the choice of materials, unless you are working towards something of a luxury price point, then the cost can increase as long as your marketing justifies. 

For that additives, you can choose to add them later after you decide on the main structural ingredients. Mark has already given you the recommendation of the basic structure, so you can work on that and add in the ingredients for marketing. As a cleansing oil is a rinse off product, i won’t recommend to add too much ingredients that are usually beneficial in leave on formulations as it’s a waste and it increases cost. You can look for those that have some effect for rinse off products if any. 

Comedogenicity varies from person to person. The only way to know is to try it out so there no way to predict. 

thanks a lot for showing me MSR, but they are located in Bangkok and it might take a lot of time to receive the ingredients. 

MSR uses DHL, so it doesn’t take that long. 

Do you recommend adding AHA ( even the most gentle  one)  in the cleansing oil so its acting as a cleanser and an exfoliant? If yes i guess it cant be used near the eyes areas or on the lips?

Will recommend leaving the exfoliation function to another product. 

What should i do so my cleansing oil doesn’t leave a film on the skin once its rinsed off and what should i do to prevent it from causing the vision to become foggy/blurry? What ingredients are responsible for these sensations? 

I’m assuming is the choice of the oil. One of the brand we distributes uses mineral oil for the cleansing balm, so it leaves a film on the skin. I’m fine with it since i have drier skin, but my colleague finds it slightly too oily for preference. 

So in that case no need to use a water-based cleanser cus when water is added its like using a water-based cleanser, is this correct? 

It’s up to the users’ choice, however if they find that the cleansing oil still leaves a film on the skin, they can still chose to use another cleanser. Most people use a water based cleanser on most days anyway, some people use the cleansing oil only as required. 

[jemolian]

Normally i store my powder ingredients that are prone to clumping in an air tight container with a large bag of desiccant / silica beads. 

[jemolian]

For the search function, normally i’d just use “” (quotation marks) if i need to search for a phase. 

[jemolian]

@kivangel i’ve haven’t tried it in anhydrous formulas, normally i use the ones i’ve mentioned in my o/w moisturizer, but i don’t think it would be too difficult or different for anhydrous processing.  

[jemolian]

If you are ordering from TKB, you can try their Tridecyl Trimellitate. 

If you are considering to order from MSR, they do also have Tridecyl Trimellitate, but you can also consider Diisostearyl Malate (mentioned above), Pentaerythrityl Tetraisostearate or Di-PPG-3 Myristyl Ether Adipate (rich but less thick consistency). 

[jemolian]

Perhaps they just treated it as a pure drug product and not as a drug/cosmetics, which the drug/cosmetics should still list the ingredients normally. 

At least i didn’t see anything related to inactive ingredients for my Asean directives for sunscreen guidelines 

Ref 

• https://www.fda.gov/media/76481/download
• https://www.hsa.gov.sg/docs/default-source/hprg/cosmetic-products/guidance/22nd-acsb—appendix-13—asean-sunscreen-guidelines-rev01-may-2015.pdf

[jemolian]

The Sodium Phytate won’t do so well with the Sepinov EMT 10, so you can test the effect of the Sepinov alone with the Sodium Phytate to see what kind of viscosity you get. 

[jemolian]

Normally when creating an emulsion, you’d use the homogenizer first, then use the stirrer. The functionality is different. 

[jemolian]

Looking at the video on the official website, the process and material should be similar to the process used in gastronomy to make caviar, it should be the algin or carrageenan from the ingredients list. 

Other bead manufacturers may use materials like agar. You can refer to biogenics for their beads. 

[jemolian]

I’d assume that Glycerin & Urea potentially could be taken up by the skin, possibly other osmotyles such as Betaine, Inositol, Taurine? 

The other NMF might work as ingredients that help replenish the skin, perhaps the lipids, or help boost the other NMF of the skin via increased synthesis, perhaps the amino acids or carbohydrates / sugars?  

[jemolian]

If you mean like from the Pemulen series, then the downside will be the particle size, it won’t be as small if using a normal emulsifier. You can consider it a suspension. You can look at their formulation guide. 

For making a gel cream, you can just use an emulsifier + carbomer combo. 

[jemolian]

@Anca_Formulator 

For the lanolin replacement, if you can’t get any of the sterols or the Veg-Lanolin, you can just use any paste type emollient that has better water retaining properties. The similarity between all of the mentioned is just that, if you look into the data sheets, you will be able to see. 

For the Isononyl Isononanoate, it largely depends on how much you use really. It’s a light ester, but if you prefer rich and creamy, you can perhaps choose a more medium or slightly heavier ester, or a combination for that effect. 

[jemolian]

For the Hydrogenated Polyisobutene, it can depend on the type used. Normally i use it to replace my Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride in some of the test formulas. 

For the Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-2, it’s a lanolin replacement, so other sterols you mentioned would be fine. You can perhaps also consider other lanolin replacements like Veg-Lanolin. It goes by a few names, the INCI is Butyrospermum Parkii Butter (and) Glyceryl Rosinate (and) Olea Europaea Oil Unsaponifiables.

For the Isononyl Isononanoate, other light esters will do, like Coco-Caprylate/Caprate.

[jemolian]

@Squinny if you are using air shipment, then the shipping cost will be expensive since it has been on the rise. 

[jemolian]

To keep it simpler, you can use the ingredient or blend with water & preservatives in a roll on bottle, in cases where the aristoflex don’t work well if there’s any preservatives with electrolytes in the ingredient or blend.

[jemolian]

Not sure what the intention for the 1% is but to marketing it would be a good tool to “deceive” or confuse the customer. 

People often look at the ingredients list and perceive better value for products with marketed / hero ingredients higher on the list. 

One of the reddit post i saw, asked about if the Ceramides in the Cerave Moisturizing Cream had changed in percentages. In the photos shown on the post of 2 packaging, one of them had the marketed ingredients up front, and another had the ingredients in proper descending order. We won’t be able to tell if the percentages had changed but to the customer it would definitely devalue the product to a certain extent.   

[jemolian]

If it’s within the pH range, yes. 

[jemolian]

Ethyl Ascorbic Acid or Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate or Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate

You can just use normal temperate water for Niacinamide. If you want to use hot water, then just below 70 degree C that you have mentioned if it’s based on supplier recommendations.