[jemolian]

You can probably just choose your own combination of materials to make your own liquid crystal emulsifier combination, however you probably also need to check to ensure that they form the maltese cross under the microscope. 

It’s just convenient to use a ready combo that has tested with specs and a skin feel profile than making your own in someway. Personally i won’t say that it’s scamy like selling soapy water. 

Ref https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/4712/pcc-lamellar-gel-network-technology-a-primer/

[jemolian]

Herbal extracts will give you the normal brown color, perhaps use a hydrosol of that herb, or use the actual constituent in that herb that is providing that effect you are looking for. 

[jemolian]

I bought mine from Alexmo from EU.

In the US, it seems the only have blends containing it like VegeCide or TRIstat ECO or Glycine-Benzoic Acid

[jemolian]

Since you are using aloe vera, you might want to add a chelating agent, though you would also want a more robust broad spectrum preservative besides from the diols you have. 

You would also need a buffer for the urea since it will increase the pH as it causes pH drifting over time. 

[jemolian]

pH 6 is the based on one of the recommendations i’ve seen, however recommended pH range varies from pH 5 to 7.5 based on different sources. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqauq2uleybsrp9/RonaCare_Nicotinamide_TDS_.pdf?dl=0

Using Niacinamide in an acidic formulation

[jemolian]

Just to add on from my experience: 

For the lamellar structure, in reference to emulsifiers, it refers to the lamellar or liquid crystal structure that certain emulsifier combinations can achieve or produce. You can read more about some benefits of it when you see the Olivem 1000 & Montanov marketing brochure or product sheets. 

Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers. 

Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size. Maybe to point out that some oils or esters or lipids in particular are easier to emulsify compared to others leading to a more stable formulation. Some natural derived emulsifiers can be less stable compared to others, some of the Montanovs are mainly less stable compared to others, perhaps 68 & L by themselves in traditional emulsion products. 

Maybe also to add that, normally i’d just use those test batches made with those traditional emulsifiers as cleansing lotion or cream since i don’t want to waste them if i don’t like the skin feel. That would include ones made with 165. 

[jemolian]

@Pattsi @chemicalmatt thanks for the confirmation

@Belassi i’ll look into that and see if i can find the manufacturer. I do have some charts on hand that i’ve been comparing at the moment. Mainly from Alzo, BASF, Croda, Phoenix Chem (Pelemol series). Any example INCI that you have requested from them so perhaps i can pinpoint them more accurately? 

[jemolian]

@elirit no worries about posting the rest of the ingredients or not because you can do it part by part, so if you found a base that you like based on your formulation requirements that would be the most important for the time being. You can observe to see if at 3% 202 it still causes any minor soaping with the percentage of oils you are using. 

For the actives or hero ingredients, remember to calculate the cost and look at the claims. 

[jemolian]

@elirit to add on to what was mentioned, there are a lot of considerations for the choice of ingredients including the emulsifiers. We haven’t discussed this since you didn’t mention your product requirements such as your product concept, restrictions, etc.

Olivem 1000 is used by neutrogena in their popular hydro boost series so at not likely to be discontinued for no reason as long as large companies are using it. It can be paired with other co-emulsifiers for stability as it make sometimes be unstable by itself and cause soaping in some cases.

For the 165 type emulsifier, it’s low cost and is produced by many manufacturers and use by quite many companies so it’s not likely to be discontinued unless every manufacturer no longer produce it.

For 202, it would be good if you are looking for a light texture with mattifying properties. 

[jemolian]

@PhilGeis in terms of longer chain, would it be from pentylene glycol and higher？I’ve been wondering about that.

[jemolian]

For the formulations:

#1

3.5% Mont 68  + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

Rich cream, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate

- Remarks: It most likely is still the iusse with the emuslfier mix and gum, you won’t be able to run from the soapiness of the emsulfiers since your percentage of oils are too low, the gum will make it more obvious. 

#2

2.0% 165 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1.1% cetyl esters + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

24 hour pic. Can take up to 48 hours to thicken. Very thin viscosity so far.

- Remarks: You should see it in about 24 hours time. I’dd recommend 2.5% or 3% 165 and drop the emulgin, then increase the Cetyl Esters to 3% or 4%. 

#3

3.0% Mont 202 + 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflex

Very thin viscosity.

- Remarks: There’s something going on there, if not aristoflex would produce a lotion at 0.5%. Check your pH. 

#4

3.0% Mont 202 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

Medium viscosity, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate. I like the texture of this one the most minus the soaping. 

- Remarks: Remarks same as #1’s

A few comments to add on to what Graillotion has mentioned:

C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate is mainly an emollient, so using it at that low percentage won’t really help as much as a direct silicone would, for example 2% Dimethicone. 

165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.

165 is mainly non-bodying, and 202 is only very slightly bodying. 

Regarding “Create a cascading effect of emolliency”, it depends if you want to do that. This in itself is another part of the sensory and performance challenge. It can involve a selection of heavy, medium, light lipids with different textures. For the most simple example, Butters (Heavy), CCT / MCT (Medium),  C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate (Medium/Light), HemiSqualane (Light).
https://itsallinmyhands.com/2013/03/05/formulating-a-lotion-choosing-the-fats-theory-pt-5/

In terms of homogenizing wise, there’s no issues with using cheap tools since i make small batches with these: 

I have various small mixers as the speed they provided are different. I’m homogenizing a watery formulation, i’d use the blue mini pain mixer, for thicker formulation, i’d use the Norpro with different attachments. 

Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?

For ethylhexyl palmitate, the comedogenic rating is relatively high but it still varies from person to person so it really depends.  

Depending on which emulsifier you are using….they can be very sensitive to the equipment used during stirring…

Do take note of the process instructions of all the ingredients and heating requirements to ensure that the emulsifier(s) and heated ingredients are evenly melted for a smooth and stable emulsion.  

[jemolian]

I either add around 10% more water when weighing or add more water to top up after cool down before preservatives. 

[jemolian]

I believe that would be the case, so i normally have mine at close to pH 4. 

Ref to this post https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1991/how-to-keep-salicylic-acid-from-crystallizing-out-of-my-gel-peel

[jemolian]

Is Octyl Palmitate the same as Ethylhexyl Palmitate? Some places seem to mention that. 

Indeed Squalane, both olive and sugar cane, seems to be much more expensive compared to other esters on 1688, can be double the price or higher. 

[jemolian]

I guess the only way is to look at the ingredients list if any is available online or i guess someone will have to look at it in stores or purchase it. Makes me curious as well. 

I’m assuming the Itzazu® Color Changing Hand Soap is similar but the actives are encapsulated in a bead form? 

https://www.tropicalseas.com/products/itzazu-color-changing-hand-soap

[jemolian]

I would believe so. I only have the MSDS for Symdiol 68T, which has Tropolone, so here’s the pdf for reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/71cgja7seopt2ty/SymDiol68T12HexanediolCaprylylGlycolTroploneAllDocuments.pdf?dl=0

Though you can also refer to the Making Cosmetics version’s SDS https://www.makingcosmetics.com/msds/sds-hexanediol-caprylyl-glycol.pdf

[jemolian]

Thanks for the recommendations. I’ll look into them. 

For the Supermol L, i’ve looked into it yesterday but it seems that it’s not available to purchase though i’m not sure if Crodamol PTIS (Pentaerythrityl Tetraisostearate) would be a reasonable sub? 

For the Isononyl Isononanoate, i’ve been using it as the light skin feel part of my ester mix already I’ve ordered some C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate as well, so i’ll have to compare it against the Capric/Caprylic Triglyceride & Triethylhexanoin when it arrives. Though looking at some charts comparing esters, they don’t mention C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate having any cushion to it?

[jemolian]

Yes, that was what i was thinking as well previously. From what i’ve seen, the recommended use rates for 1,2-Hexanediol & Pentylene Glycol don’t need to be very high, but in terms of cost wise, is it cheaper compared to the combo you are using? 

For the Symdiol 68, in the marketing brochure, they did mention some moisturizing functionality at about 0.5%. Though Caprylyl Glycol might cause some emulsion instability? I see people having these issues sometimes in the facebook groups when the use Optiphen
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pfb8r222arkjyj/PB_SymDiol-68.pdf?dl=0

If you are using the Euxyl PE 9010, you can consider adding up to 3% of Pentylene Glycol. You can take a look at the pdf for some info for consideration if you haven’t before: 

• dermosoft® Pentiol eco - https://www.dropbox.com/s/qmlt3ucxt3lhatk/PI_dermosoft_Pentiol%20eco_052019.pdf?dl=0
• Hydrolite 5 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwuqpcyvowokqa7/616751%20Hydrolite%205%20QS%20cn.pdf?dl=0
• Hydrolite 5 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/8vw6uvbvcsuxoia/Hydrolite%205_Green_pb.pdf?dl=0

 For the 1,2-Hexanediol:

• dermosoft_Hexiol - https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6qseudpboqj5eq/Product_Information_dermosoft_Hexiol_2017_EN.pdf?dl=0
• Hydrolite 6 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/mba5hdj6q37qng5/510352%20Hydrolite%206%20O%20QS%20-%201608.pdf?dl=0
• https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8a75j3wuty7dt6/Technical%20Data%20Sheet_Hexiol_V4_12-15.pdf?dl=0

[jemolian]

@helenhelen testing at 3% in 15% Aristoflex Avc, i think it’s hard to tell the difference between the two. Testing at 100% as is, they just feel about equally wet or slightly greasy, so not too much difference there as well. 

I’d say the difference would largely be perhaps the cost and what kind of use rate you’d like to have, besides from the potential irritation that each glycol or diol might cause for the user. Some people do look for Butylene Glycol free products while some people break out from Propanediol due to the high concentration from product range from The Ordinary. 

[jemolian]

You can consider batch testing 0.5% to 2% to see if you get the same effect with a gelling agent I believe the lubrizol sample formulations are around that range for humectants that are added.  

[jemolian]

Looking at the website, the marketing message mentions Hypercolor technology? The color seems to change to white due to heat. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercolor

[jemolian]

Regarding the skin feel wise, they do have some differences, so you can pick which you prefer. I have the following on hand, so if you need to me patch test for a description do let me know: 

• 1,2-Hexanediol
• Pentylene Glycol
• Propylene glycol
• Propanediol
• Butylene Glycol
• SymDiol 68 (1,2-Hexanediol (and) Caprylyl Glycol)
  

User experience wise, 1,2-Hexanediol, Pentylene Glycol, Propylene glycol makes my face tingle, Caprylyl Glycol makes my face warm. I use Propanediol, Butylene Glycol in my hand wash so i’ve not tested it on my face at the moment. 

[jemolian]

My guess would be the mix of xanthan gum with the glycerin? 

When it is was serious Covid times earlier on i had made a 60% IPA gel with Sepimax Zen and Methyl Gluceth-20 (just 0.5%). It’s not very drying compared to liquid no-gel types, and the guys at work use it multiple times a day, every time they are back from their smoke break. 

[jemolian]

To add to the recommendation of testing, i’d recommend to patch test all your functional, structural & additive ingredients if you are not familiar enough with them yet. So, mainly your lipids, emulsifiers/thickener, texture/sensory  modifiers. It’s good to know kind of performance in terms of skin feel, viscosity, look they have at different percentages. This is more or less a one time thing, so just note down your observation. This way you can more or less whip up a formulation quickly based on your work done.  

For example, i’d patch test the Aristoflex at 0.3%, 0.5%, 0.75%, 1% in 30ml batch. Then to patch test the lipids or oils, test it straight at 100%, then test at 2%, 4%, 10% in Aristoflex or other emulsifiers which you have previously tested. Also test humectants in similar way at different dilutions, just not 100% unless they are safe to be applied that way. 

In terms of product design wise, for my current specific themed moisturizer, i’m at my 27th revision. I note the look, pickup, texture / skin feel, smell, performance in higher humidity (~70%) & slightly lower humidity (~50%).   

For example, the 27th revision that i whipped up yesterday, i’m testing a few things at once: 

• the new ingredient that i’m testing is Tremella (humectant)
• the new emulsifier combination i’m testing is Aristoflex with Hydrolyzed Sclerotium Gum
• i’m also testing a lower lipid percentage

If you know what you are testing and which part of observe, it’s possible to make multiple changes to it. So for example for the Tremella, i’m testing if it would cause a tightness as it’s a well known film former, for the emulsifier combo, i’m testing the look, pick up and skin feel. The lipids, i’m testing the moisturization / emolliency. If the ingredients you are testing overlaps in terms of things you want to observe, it’s best to make a separate batch for observation. 

[jemolian]

Normally HAs are water soluble, you might want to look for the oil soluble or dispersible or ones with different “delivery” systems on ulprospector.