[jemolian]

Normally it’s the thickeners like Aristoflex or Sodium Carbomer pilling because of the lipids. That happens when i use a lipid that is too oily like Squalane. Though i’ve not used Dimethicone in a long time, i can’t say for sure if that also affects it, but i’d also guess that both Dimethicone & Polymethylsilsesquioxane affects it to a certain extent. 

Normally Aristoflex or Sodium Carbomer don’t really pill in my formulations without “conflicting” ingredients. 

[jemolian]

Is it possible to realize what kind of an emulsion it is looking at the skin care formula? I mean if there are specific emulsifiers or combination of ingredients that work only for w/o emulsions?

While i’m not a chemist, normally i look at the emulsifier used and look into what kind they are. That’s how i normally determine that they would be. Looking at the related rheology modifiers like the water based or oil based thickeners would also give you a clue since it can be restrictive for w/o emulsions. 

 Another question is - is it still true that w/o still tend to contain less of water (27 to 75%) as opposed to o/w (52 to 80%) or recently the ratio has developed to be the same 60-80%?

I believe it would depend on the emulsifier. For example, based on the specs sheet of ABIL® EM 90 (Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 Dimethicone), the optimal oil phase is about 20% to 35% depending on whether lotion or cream. 

[jemolian]

The minimum requirements to make an oil cleanser is normally just lipid + emulsifier. The emulsifier just needs to be able to be soluble in the lipid. 

If you are making a balm, then a lipid suitable thickener. 

You can add additives like actives, different lipids for sensory modification or other purposes. For preservatives, if you are having an open jar container, perhaps it would be recommended with an antioxidant if applicable based on the lipids chosen. 

[jemolian]

Add the glycerin to the heated water phase would do. 

For fatty alcohols, wait for about 24 to 48 hours to gauge the final viscosity as it will thicken up over some time.  

[jemolian]

It might be that you TEGO care 165 isn’t sufficient, or that you have over homogenized the lotion. 

For a basic lotion, you can try something like this:

• TEGO care 165 3%
• Cetearyl alcohol 2 to 3%
• Lipid 5%
• Glycerin 3%
• Preservative as required
• pH adjuster as required

[jemolian]

@Graillotion lotioncrafter has quite some of the crosspolyers, though in particular maybe this https://lotioncrafter.com/collections/silicones-alternatives/products/optiblur-elastomer

[jemolian]

Without the formula, i’d assume it’s a common lack of humectant(s), or that the product has dried due to the low humidity, or a combination of both since you mentioned crust around the tube cap. 

[jemolian]

Just wondering, must it be 5% Salicylic acid? Because it’s can be very difficult to solubilize. 

[jemolian]

Ectoin is quite expensive but what is your intended use for it because there are other osmolytes? Looking at the product brochure, it looks more like a skin protectant type of ingredient to me. 

If you are looking for others, perhaps Glycoin, or even cheaper ones like Trehalose, Betaine, would also be fine. 

[jemolian]

What batch size did you make? Because sometimes you might have introduced too much air into the batch with the batch not suitable for your homogenizing tool. 

[jemolian]

You can probably just choose your own combination of materials to make your own liquid crystal emulsifier combination, however you probably also need to check to ensure that they form the maltese cross under the microscope. 

It’s just convenient to use a ready combo that has tested with specs and a skin feel profile than making your own in someway. Personally i won’t say that it’s scamy like selling soapy water. 

Ref https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/4712/pcc-lamellar-gel-network-technology-a-primer/

[jemolian]

Herbal extracts will give you the normal brown color, perhaps use a hydrosol of that herb, or use the actual constituent in that herb that is providing that effect you are looking for. 

[jemolian]

I bought mine from Alexmo from EU.

In the US, it seems the only have blends containing it like VegeCide or TRIstat ECO or Glycine-Benzoic Acid

[jemolian]

Since you are using aloe vera, you might want to add a chelating agent, though you would also want a more robust broad spectrum preservative besides from the diols you have. 

You would also need a buffer for the urea since it will increase the pH as it causes pH drifting over time. 

[jemolian]

pH 6 is the based on one of the recommendations i’ve seen, however recommended pH range varies from pH 5 to 7.5 based on different sources. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqauq2uleybsrp9/RonaCare_Nicotinamide_TDS_.pdf?dl=0

Using Niacinamide in an acidic formulation

[jemolian]

Just to add on from my experience: 

For the lamellar structure, in reference to emulsifiers, it refers to the lamellar or liquid crystal structure that certain emulsifier combinations can achieve or produce. You can read more about some benefits of it when you see the Olivem 1000 & Montanov marketing brochure or product sheets. 

Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers. 

Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size. Maybe to point out that some oils or esters or lipids in particular are easier to emulsify compared to others leading to a more stable formulation. Some natural derived emulsifiers can be less stable compared to others, some of the Montanovs are mainly less stable compared to others, perhaps 68 & L by themselves in traditional emulsion products. 

Maybe also to add that, normally i’d just use those test batches made with those traditional emulsifiers as cleansing lotion or cream since i don’t want to waste them if i don’t like the skin feel. That would include ones made with 165. 

[jemolian]

@Pattsi @chemicalmatt thanks for the confirmation

@Belassi i’ll look into that and see if i can find the manufacturer. I do have some charts on hand that i’ve been comparing at the moment. Mainly from Alzo, BASF, Croda, Phoenix Chem (Pelemol series). Any example INCI that you have requested from them so perhaps i can pinpoint them more accurately? 

[jemolian]

@elirit no worries about posting the rest of the ingredients or not because you can do it part by part, so if you found a base that you like based on your formulation requirements that would be the most important for the time being. You can observe to see if at 3% 202 it still causes any minor soaping with the percentage of oils you are using. 

For the actives or hero ingredients, remember to calculate the cost and look at the claims. 

[jemolian]

@elirit to add on to what was mentioned, there are a lot of considerations for the choice of ingredients including the emulsifiers. We haven’t discussed this since you didn’t mention your product requirements such as your product concept, restrictions, etc.

Olivem 1000 is used by neutrogena in their popular hydro boost series so at not likely to be discontinued for no reason as long as large companies are using it. It can be paired with other co-emulsifiers for stability as it make sometimes be unstable by itself and cause soaping in some cases.

For the 165 type emulsifier, it’s low cost and is produced by many manufacturers and use by quite many companies so it’s not likely to be discontinued unless every manufacturer no longer produce it.

For 202, it would be good if you are looking for a light texture with mattifying properties. 

[jemolian]

@PhilGeis in terms of longer chain, would it be from pentylene glycol and higher？I’ve been wondering about that.

[jemolian]

For the formulations:

#1

3.5% Mont 68  + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

Rich cream, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate

- Remarks: It most likely is still the iusse with the emuslfier mix and gum, you won’t be able to run from the soapiness of the emsulfiers since your percentage of oils are too low, the gum will make it more obvious. 

#2

2.0% 165 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1.1% cetyl esters + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

24 hour pic. Can take up to 48 hours to thicken. Very thin viscosity so far.

- Remarks: You should see it in about 24 hours time. I’dd recommend 2.5% or 3% 165 and drop the emulgin, then increase the Cetyl Esters to 3% or 4%. 

#3

3.0% Mont 202 + 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflex

Very thin viscosity.

- Remarks: There’s something going on there, if not aristoflex would produce a lotion at 0.5%. Check your pH. 

#4

3.0% Mont 202 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum

3% glycerin + 7.5% oil

Medium viscosity, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate. I like the texture of this one the most minus the soaping. 

- Remarks: Remarks same as #1’s

A few comments to add on to what Graillotion has mentioned:

C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate is mainly an emollient, so using it at that low percentage won’t really help as much as a direct silicone would, for example 2% Dimethicone. 

165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.

165 is mainly non-bodying, and 202 is only very slightly bodying. 

Regarding “Create a cascading effect of emolliency”, it depends if you want to do that. This in itself is another part of the sensory and performance challenge. It can involve a selection of heavy, medium, light lipids with different textures. For the most simple example, Butters (Heavy), CCT / MCT (Medium),  C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate (Medium/Light), HemiSqualane (Light).
https://itsallinmyhands.com/2013/03/05/formulating-a-lotion-choosing-the-fats-theory-pt-5/

In terms of homogenizing wise, there’s no issues with using cheap tools since i make small batches with these: 

I have various small mixers as the speed they provided are different. I’m homogenizing a watery formulation, i’d use the blue mini pain mixer, for thicker formulation, i’d use the Norpro with different attachments. 

Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?

For ethylhexyl palmitate, the comedogenic rating is relatively high but it still varies from person to person so it really depends.  

Depending on which emulsifier you are using….they can be very sensitive to the equipment used during stirring…

Do take note of the process instructions of all the ingredients and heating requirements to ensure that the emulsifier(s) and heated ingredients are evenly melted for a smooth and stable emulsion.  

[jemolian]

I either add around 10% more water when weighing or add more water to top up after cool down before preservatives. 

[jemolian]

I believe that would be the case, so i normally have mine at close to pH 4. 

Ref to this post https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1991/how-to-keep-salicylic-acid-from-crystallizing-out-of-my-gel-peel

[jemolian]

Is Octyl Palmitate the same as Ethylhexyl Palmitate? Some places seem to mention that. 

Indeed Squalane, both olive and sugar cane, seems to be much more expensive compared to other esters on 1688, can be double the price or higher. 

[jemolian]

I guess the only way is to look at the ingredients list if any is available online or i guess someone will have to look at it in stores or purchase it. Makes me curious as well. 

I’m assuming the Itzazu® Color Changing Hand Soap is similar but the actives are encapsulated in a bead form? 

https://www.tropicalseas.com/products/itzazu-color-changing-hand-soap