[Herbnerd]

I think the big decider will be price - I am currently paying around $14/kg for food grade xanthan; VS what I have been quoted for cosmetic grades of around $70/kg (but I am in NZ and everything costs a lot more here).

The biggest problem I have is that my bosses do not see any value in a cosmetic grade.

Observations I have seen, and this may just be from the xanthan we are using (TIC gums - Ticaxan) is that in some formulations, it is a bit stringy with no ‘snap’, so when filling tubes, there is a lot of tailing and dripping. One formula being a lot worse than the others.

Probably doesn’t help too much - but best to grab a load of different samples and see what works best for you.

[Herbnerd]

As a formulator of toothpaste (I tend to work to Natrue standards, so some of the ingredients you’ve listed are not permitted under this standard, and as such, I have little experience of them).

First thing I notice - no abrasives. You mentioned calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate “as needed”. I’m unsure whether you mean this to be used as an abrasive or whether you are thinking to manage pH. - but unsure if you mean these to be abrasives. You could consider, silicon dioxide (there are gel grades and abrasive grades).

“Glycerol/Sorbitol” - 35-60%. 35-40% is more around the level you want. Too high, you end up with a paste that looks more plasticy. I have one formula with the glycerol around 20% - it produces a dull looking flat paste, that solidifies rather quickly in air - and I would reduce this, but because the glycerol/Xylitol/Steviol glycosides produced a sweetness almost comparable with saccharine - I am stuck with it)

CAPB/Coco Glucoside - Levels look about right but you will need to experiment to see how it affects the flavour of your toothastes.

Preservatives - We don’t use any. We have tested to BP standards, cosmetic microbiology standards, USP standards. As well as testing water activity. We have done ambient and accelerated stability, and tested it every way we can. We have proven we don’t need it. However, if you are not prepared to test to the levels we have, use preservatives - and parabens are the best in toothpaste. There are other options available - but potassium sorbate will not work at all with a calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate paste (pH is 8-8.5), and very limited use in a silicon dioxide gel - because you will need to lower pH further and this is not great for teeth.

Triclosan - I don’t use it. It also seems to be restricted in the markets we generally sell in.

To answer your specific questions.

Yes, you can have a toothpaste without calcium carbonate in it - but consider the options you do want to use as an abrasive. Silicon dioxide abrasives such as Evonik Zeodent grades have targeted RDA/PCR at a particular usage rate. Bicarb abrasiveness depends on particle size. There are others you can use.

Thickener - I would use Sodium carboxymethylcellulose (Cellulose gum) every time. But that is a personal preference based on experience

Surfactants - most use SLS because it is the easiest to work with and has fewer off flavours to work with. I use Lauryl glucoside and sodium cocoyl glutamate. Seems our marketing team and customers expect product to be free from SLS. The ones I use do impart some off flavours that are hard to mask.

pH range - I wouldn’t go below pH 5.5. This was recommended to us by the good chaps at OHRI at Indiana Uni.

Fluoride - there is no replacement for fluoride. The trend is towards using nano-hydroxyapatite, but fluoride really does bind to teh calcium in teeth and strengthen them. If you use fluoride, avoid using it in a calcium carbonate toothpaste. The total fluoride will remain at the levels on input, but the free-fluoride will drop and sodium fluoride or sodium monofluorophosphate will react over time reducing your free-fluoride (which does nothing to help teeth). Triclosan will not replace fluoride.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Herbnerd.

[Herbnerd]

Just mix the xanthan in the glycerol until there are no lumps and it is well dispersed. We are manufacturing 1400 kg batches (not shampoo) using this method.

[Herbnerd]

You could try it. I doubt it will work - but a lot will depend on what you are using as an abrasive because the abrasives affect the overall pH of the finished toothpaste.

Silicon dioxide is weakly acidic (finished toothpaste was around pH 6.5), you may be successful using carbomer to make a silicon dioxide gel. Calcium carbonate and baking soda is quite alkali ) the toothpastes we manufacture using Calcium carbonate or baking soda are around 8-8.5. I have no idea how the pH will affect the finished product if using carbomer.

I use either Cellulose gum/CMC (sodium carboxymethyl cellulose) in non-Natrue formulae, or xanthan gum in Natrue toothpastes.

CMC is by far better in this role. I guess by suggesting carbomer, meeting a natural standard is not in your plans; I would suggest you to use CMC every time.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Herbnerd.

[Herbnerd]

Hard to call this a toothpaste because there is no water in it - it looks like a toothpowder. Dip your wet toothbrush into the powder then brush as normal.

When manufacturing toothpaste, I dissolve the xylitol into the water along with other water soluble ingredients, before adding the dry ingredients into the vacuum mixer.

[Herbnerd]

If a quick and dirty calculation is what you need - go to the Natrue website and download the standards and the annexes and work through them. As long as you don’t make claims about meeting Natrue, you should be fine; but if you want to use Natrue certification, then an audit/fees etc will be required.

Natural ingredients are pretty much anything plant based - where you may not consider the solvents, Natrue does consider extraction agents and the excipients/diluents. Check Annex 1

Annex 2 Natural & nature identical minerals, pigments etc with the exception of some fluoride salts, pretty much anything that occurs in nature is permitted, though if it is not on the Natrue list, you may need to make a submission - I got potassium nitrate listed this way.

Annex 3 - Derived natural - there are a ton of derived natural compounds here. Just search the list

Annex 4 - permitted preservatives. This is minimal. There really isn’t much there.

Download the label requirements and refer to table 1

Natrue has tighter requirements than COSMOS - where sodium CMC is permitted under COSMOS, it is considered synthetic under Natrue.

Happy to assist if you need further help.

[Herbnerd]

Try Indian grocers who import their own stock. Old Spice made in India is, I believe, still made to the old formula and still popular.

I buy it, and prefer it to the insipid Old Spice bought through regular distribution outlets.

[Herbnerd]

I was asked to provide both sets of info. The amount of the ingredients used and the amount of the active too” Such as:

Lauryl Glucoside 50% - 5%

containing: Lauryl Glucoside 2.5%; Water 2.5%

This may just be because our international marketing team didn’t understand what was required.

[Herbnerd]

Toothpaste formulator here.

1. Abrasive silica - are you targeting a specific RDA? In which case that will affect the choice of abrasive silica and the quantity used. If you are using Evonik material there is an RDA/PCR calculator on their silica site. There are a ton of different grades with different abrasivities. You can adjust or mix and match accordingly. You should ensure your toothpaste is safe - we send to University of Indiana’s Oral Health Research Institute for analysis

2 Thickening silica - You will find that this will very much depend on the silica above and also the quantity used. For example if I use a low RDA/PCR silica it also has very low thickening ability (I’m using 7% Thickening silica like zeodent 165) whereas if I have a high abrasive silica, it does not appear to contribute to the viscosity in the same volume used, but I tend to use more of it - in one case I am using 20-24% abrasive silica to about 3% thickening silica.

3. Sorbitol - Depends on the formula - I am using between 13-40%. A lot of this will depend on the aesthetics of the toothpaste. If you want a clear gel, you will need to match the refractive index of the silica. If you are titanium dioxide to give opacity or a FD&C colour this will be less important.

4. Glycerol - We were using around 10-15% as a humectant to stop it drying out. We have used much more than that in some formulations.

5. CMC - Probably about right. But you will need to trial this based on the formula. It will work with the thickening silica.

6. Remaining ingredients - a lot of this will be down to your product preferences and performance. SLS might need adjusting up or down depending on how much it foams and whether you want less or more foam Colour is down to personal preference

7. Fluoride - depending on your market, this may be considered a drug or a cosmetic product. Fluoride in toothpaste in USA, Japan, Korea is a drug, In EU, China, ASEAN Aus, NZ it comes under cosmetics provided 1000 ppm/g is not exceeded. Just check whether you are expressing ppm w/w or ppm w/v.

Trouble is, like many things, there is no-one off the shelf formula. The guts of it look OK, but ultimately so much will depend on the materials you use and the trials you need to do to confirm this.

With silicon dioxide gels, mix under vacuum, then once clear, mix the SLS in last and stir for a few minutes. Otherwise it will go opaque. This may not be a problem if you are producing a white gel.

[Herbnerd]

If you search under Colecalcierol (British spelling) or Cholecalciferol (American spelling) you will see it is listed as an endocrine disrupter.

This is probably the reason it is banned in cosmetics.

https://edlists.org/the-ed-lists/list-i-substances-identified-as-endocrine-disruptors-by-the-eu

edlists.org

Substances identified as endocrine disruptors at EU level

This list contains substances that have undergone the full evaluation process for endocrine disruption as regulated in the EU under the Plant Protection Products Regulation (PPPR), the Biocidal Products Regulation (BPR) or REACH (the Candidate- and Authorization Lists).

[Herbnerd]

I suspect the INCI you have been given is incomplete. A quick search on google led me to this site selling wig glues.

I had to giggle at the lay-language used especially for What is Acrylic? “Short Answer: a substance cooked up in labs.”

I can only suggest spending more time researching similar products.

https://blog.walkertapeco.com/our-10-most-commonly-used-ingredients/

blog.walkertapeco.com

Our 10 Most Commonly Used Ingredients | Walker Tape®

Walker Tape & Beautify products are staples for both their performance and literal ingredients. Here's a breakdown of our top 10 ingredients.

[Herbnerd]

Acid value, peroxide and anisidine are used as markers of rancidity in oils. The Peroxide and Anisidine is often used in a calculation called TOTOX (2PV+AV) and a TOTOX value above 26 is considered rancid.

However, this is really useful in polyunsaturated oils such as fish oil, flax oils and generally oils used for nutrition rather than cosmetic use.

I guess the manufacturer is just proving their oils are not oxidised in bulk, but I would think it is of little use in cosmetic applications

[Herbnerd]

China is no problem - check the IECIC 2021 for the latest list of cosmetic ingredients

Korea & Japan you need to check whether your product is classed as a quasi-drug. If it is, then you will need to find a pharmacopoeial monograph to support it. (I’ll save you time, there isn’t one for mica) in the Big 6 Pharmacopoeia permitted in Korea (KP, JP, BP, USP, EP and the German Pharmacopiea (I think that was the last one).

Korea is very tough, even tissues are classed as quasi drugs. Japan does have some cosmetic regulations as well as quasi-drugs.

Japanese Cosmetic Ingredient

list https://www.mhlw.go.jp/topics/2008/04/dl/tp0407-3a.pdf

https://www.jcia.org/user/business/ingredients/namelist

[Herbnerd]

There is a difference between salicylic acid and salicin - the latter being the salicylate compound found in plants.

Salicin is a glycoside which is highly soluble in water (43 g/L) (not so much in ethanol at 3 g/L); however Salicylic acid has poor solubility in water (about 2 g/L)

[Herbnerd]

I asked this question a few months back as was guided to Alconox.com

However, because we are working to Natrue standards (manufacturing toothpaste) it turned out we couldn’t use their products (or our local distributor was useless) so we use citric acid to dissolve the calcium carbonate based toothpastes only and just our existing approved surfactants should we need it.

[Herbnerd]

You don’t dissolve the iron oxide - you just disperse it. You just need to ensure it is evenly dispersed and there are no lumps. Any lab mixer should be able to do this.

[Herbnerd]

I’ve used Capric/caprylic triglycerides as an alternative but I am working to Natrue and the other options were somewhat limited.

[Herbnerd]

I’ve been developing toothpastes for a few years now. Most of our toothpaste does not use any sodium benzoate, potassium sorbate or any other preservative; however two of them do - our toothpaste is stable based on low water activity (0.2 from memory), high pH (calcium carbonate pastes are generally pH 8-8.5).

We have tested to various PET/Log count methods (ISO, BP, USP etc) and all passed with the exception of the kids toothpaste.

With the kids toothpaste we sought extra advice on pH from Indiana University’s Oral Health Research Institute as to the lowest pH we could go to - and the advise we received was surprisingly low; however, we ended up using potassium sorbate and targeting a pH of 5-5.5 and we passed PET/Log counts.

Note: We develop to a natural standard and many options for effective preservation were not available to us.

[Herbnerd]

CMC just produces a more stable gel that works in many manufacturing methods. Xanthan just doesn’t have the same sort of gel strength.

[Herbnerd]

I’d say it is an incomplete INCI - there has to be water in the formulation somewhere - even the liquid castille soap has water in the INCI (or at least it should). But also assuming that the colloidal silver will provide some water.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Herbnerd.

[Herbnerd]

Unsure at the moment where the company wants to go - but I would guess they would prefer to look at contract manufacturing because adding to our own range seems to include months and months of indecision.

[Herbnerd]

If you are doing an oil extraction of the plant, it is unlikely unless there are any oil-soluble salicylate compounds present. Salicylic acid is soluble at about 2.4% in oil; however the acid form may not be present in appreciable quantities to be considered therapeutic.

Plants are full of a tonne of compounds - and depending on the plant (genus/species) and sometimes down to chemotypes of plants, also where it is grown, when it is harvested the target compounds may be present in greater or lesser quantities.

You may be better buying a standardised extract (such as Salix alba bark extract standardised to X% salicin; but if you are using this is a topical cream the salicin won’t be broken down from its glycoside to the free acid.

You could however, use another salicylate compound - such as methyl salicylate or wintergreen oil. You can buy synthetic methyl salicylate but wintergreen oil if you want natural.

[Herbnerd]

Fair comment, I hadn’t considered that aspect of it. And I should, because for the last 5 years I have been fixing all sorts of issues from when the company I work for bought out the company for which I have been sorting out documentation, labels, international registration etc.

I guess I assumed that wouldn’t have been so widespread an issue in the industry.

[Herbnerd]

There is that - but also when a corporation buys out a company they impose their ethos over everything; this can be completely at odds with the original founder of the company.

Body Shop was good in their day, but as consumers demand more of a story, more ‘natural’ ingredients and Body Shop failed to keep up with what their customers want. As such their customers deserted them in favour of brands that are more closely aligned to their ethics.

[Herbnerd]

China has recently published new standards for cosmetics and since our business exports toothpaste to China, this affects us. The new regulations were published late September.

My boss is complaining that we should have let him know ‘months ago’ and not just now. The new regulations are to be implemented on 1st December this year. Our supposed head of innovation has no idea of innovation or regulation.