[Herbnerd]

I find the amount you need to use depends very much on the taste of the finished product and also how much it foams and adjust the amount accordingly.

If, you are using essential oils to flavour, you may require more SLS/CAPB - the oils seem to knock the foaming back a bit, you may find you are using too much if you use a commercial flavour.

Also, if you are going for fruity flavours (or non-mint flavours) you may find the flavours of the SLS/CAPB come through a bit more and you may need to adjust.

[Herbnerd]

I develop toothpaste for another company. We meet Natrue & ISO 16128-1 and we do not have any preservatives in most of them.

Our toothpaste has been tested by independent labs to show that our toothpaste is not only stable and resist microchallenge & log count testing, but we have proven that our toothpaste is not only stable for the 3 year shelf life, and we have tested our toothpaste to 5 years too - with only a decline in flavour.

The toothpaste preservation is a combination of low water activity (Aw <0.2), and to some degree the use of various essential oils used as flavouring. We have used Totarol as an antimicrobial; but have found that we do not even need to use it.

We have tested to BP/USP micro standards and also ISO 18415. One of our kids toothpaste using commercial flavours failed BP/USP stability testing, but passed ISO 18415. Whilst we know we would be apparently safe selling it, we have used potassium sorbate as more of a belt & braces approach and we know this has passed BP/USP micro testing.

We use no special packaging - just a standard toothpaste tube.

I hope that helps.

[Herbnerd]

Can’t edit the above - but I forgot we also tested to ISO 11930.

[Herbnerd]

most likely, it is a reaction to the remaining, yet undisclosed, ingredients.

[Herbnerd]

Retinyl palmitate is oil soluble, so you should just be able to mix it in with no problem.

But, I would assume if you are having trouble mixing it in to oil, then perhaps you have a dry vitamin A encapsulated onto starch or glucose rather than the oil form.

[Herbnerd]

I doubt it. If you have two different formulae on paper, you will need two different manufacturing documents then they would two different formulae. If the proportions of the materials are different it could even have the same INCI. They would still different formula.

[Herbnerd]

Silymarin is soluble in ethanol; and also in acetone - most commercial extracts use 95% ethanol or acetone for extraction purposes.

Ethanol is used if it is intended to be extracted for consumption as a tincture or fluid extract. I have also seen glycetracts where the silymarin is extracted using glycerin; however, most commercial silymarin extracts sold as concentrated powdered extracts standardised to silymarin use acetone and dried.

If you are extracting yourself, a simple tincture of 1000 ml of95% ethanol, and 200 g of silybum marianum seeds - ground and extracted over a couple of weeks will give you a 1:5 tincture. If you wanted to go to 1:2 fluid extract, the extraction is done through percolation.

[Herbnerd]

Funny story here - I was once asked to formulate some flavoured lubes by a friend of a friend - I delivered the first sample and - but her idea of payment was quid pro quo - and since I have no interested in being thrashed by a dominatrix, the project went dead.

Glycerol is warming on its own, especially when in contact with water and mucus membranes. Whilst 80% glycerol is fine, you could make it more of a gel using some cellulose gum/HPC/HPMC. Checking the INCI for teh durex cherry lube, I see they use some eugenol - and perhaps this also increases the warming effect.

I have seen some arousal gels that use L-Arginine which is meant as a localised vascular dilator. Perhaps niacinamide may help, but I think the nicotinic acid form is more likely to work in that area.

In terms of testing, you need to see if it will give slip and slide with minimal friction - the best way of testing this, came from a gay gay - who said to put a drop on your palms and rub together furiously - I guess that is the family safe way of testing and unlikely to lead to impropriety claims from your staff.

[Herbnerd]

Willow bark contains mostly salicin, the glycoside form of salicylic acid; however, some salicylic acid is reported to be present - from the data I have, salicin is reported to be between 4-11 g/kg in raw herb; naturally any extraction will concentrate that amount. I don’t have any data for salicylic acid content of the bark; but again, any extraction will concentrate that too.

Salicin, being a glycoside, is metabolised in the gut into salicylic acid and sugar; however, I don’t believe there are any enzymes produced by the skin to convert salicin to salicylic acid.

[Herbnerd]

I think the big decider will be price - I am currently paying around $14/kg for food grade xanthan; VS what I have been quoted for cosmetic grades of around $70/kg (but I am in NZ and everything costs a lot more here).

The biggest problem I have is that my bosses do not see any value in a cosmetic grade.

Observations I have seen, and this may just be from the xanthan we are using (TIC gums - Ticaxan) is that in some formulations, it is a bit stringy with no ‘snap’, so when filling tubes, there is a lot of tailing and dripping. One formula being a lot worse than the others.

Probably doesn’t help too much - but best to grab a load of different samples and see what works best for you.

[Herbnerd]

As a formulator of toothpaste (I tend to work to Natrue standards, so some of the ingredients you’ve listed are not permitted under this standard, and as such, I have little experience of them).

First thing I notice - no abrasives. You mentioned calcium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate “as needed”. I’m unsure whether you mean this to be used as an abrasive or whether you are thinking to manage pH. - but unsure if you mean these to be abrasives. You could consider, silicon dioxide (there are gel grades and abrasive grades).

“Glycerol/Sorbitol” - 35-60%. 35-40% is more around the level you want. Too high, you end up with a paste that looks more plasticy. I have one formula with the glycerol around 20% - it produces a dull looking flat paste, that solidifies rather quickly in air - and I would reduce this, but because the glycerol/Xylitol/Steviol glycosides produced a sweetness almost comparable with saccharine - I am stuck with it)

CAPB/Coco Glucoside - Levels look about right but you will need to experiment to see how it affects the flavour of your toothastes.

Preservatives - We don’t use any. We have tested to BP standards, cosmetic microbiology standards, USP standards. As well as testing water activity. We have done ambient and accelerated stability, and tested it every way we can. We have proven we don’t need it. However, if you are not prepared to test to the levels we have, use preservatives - and parabens are the best in toothpaste. There are other options available - but potassium sorbate will not work at all with a calcium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate paste (pH is 8-8.5), and very limited use in a silicon dioxide gel - because you will need to lower pH further and this is not great for teeth.

Triclosan - I don’t use it. It also seems to be restricted in the markets we generally sell in.

To answer your specific questions.

Yes, you can have a toothpaste without calcium carbonate in it - but consider the options you do want to use as an abrasive. Silicon dioxide abrasives such as Evonik Zeodent grades have targeted RDA/PCR at a particular usage rate. Bicarb abrasiveness depends on particle size. There are others you can use.

Thickener - I would use Sodium carboxymethylcellulose (Cellulose gum) every time. But that is a personal preference based on experience

Surfactants - most use SLS because it is the easiest to work with and has fewer off flavours to work with. I use Lauryl glucoside and sodium cocoyl glutamate. Seems our marketing team and customers expect product to be free from SLS. The ones I use do impart some off flavours that are hard to mask.

pH range - I wouldn’t go below pH 5.5. This was recommended to us by the good chaps at OHRI at Indiana Uni.

Fluoride - there is no replacement for fluoride. The trend is towards using nano-hydroxyapatite, but fluoride really does bind to teh calcium in teeth and strengthen them. If you use fluoride, avoid using it in a calcium carbonate toothpaste. The total fluoride will remain at the levels on input, but the free-fluoride will drop and sodium fluoride or sodium monofluorophosphate will react over time reducing your free-fluoride (which does nothing to help teeth). Triclosan will not replace fluoride.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Herbnerd.

[Herbnerd]

Just mix the xanthan in the glycerol until there are no lumps and it is well dispersed. We are manufacturing 1400 kg batches (not shampoo) using this method.

[Herbnerd]

You could try it. I doubt it will work - but a lot will depend on what you are using as an abrasive because the abrasives affect the overall pH of the finished toothpaste.

Silicon dioxide is weakly acidic (finished toothpaste was around pH 6.5), you may be successful using carbomer to make a silicon dioxide gel. Calcium carbonate and baking soda is quite alkali ) the toothpastes we manufacture using Calcium carbonate or baking soda are around 8-8.5. I have no idea how the pH will affect the finished product if using carbomer.

I use either Cellulose gum/CMC (sodium carboxymethyl cellulose) in non-Natrue formulae, or xanthan gum in Natrue toothpastes.

CMC is by far better in this role. I guess by suggesting carbomer, meeting a natural standard is not in your plans; I would suggest you to use CMC every time.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Herbnerd.

[Herbnerd]

Hard to call this a toothpaste because there is no water in it - it looks like a toothpowder. Dip your wet toothbrush into the powder then brush as normal.

When manufacturing toothpaste, I dissolve the xylitol into the water along with other water soluble ingredients, before adding the dry ingredients into the vacuum mixer.

[Herbnerd]

If a quick and dirty calculation is what you need - go to the Natrue website and download the standards and the annexes and work through them. As long as you don’t make claims about meeting Natrue, you should be fine; but if you want to use Natrue certification, then an audit/fees etc will be required.

Natural ingredients are pretty much anything plant based - where you may not consider the solvents, Natrue does consider extraction agents and the excipients/diluents. Check Annex 1

Annex 2 Natural & nature identical minerals, pigments etc with the exception of some fluoride salts, pretty much anything that occurs in nature is permitted, though if it is not on the Natrue list, you may need to make a submission - I got potassium nitrate listed this way.

Annex 3 - Derived natural - there are a ton of derived natural compounds here. Just search the list

Annex 4 - permitted preservatives. This is minimal. There really isn’t much there.

Download the label requirements and refer to table 1

Natrue has tighter requirements than COSMOS - where sodium CMC is permitted under COSMOS, it is considered synthetic under Natrue.

Happy to assist if you need further help.

[Herbnerd]

Try Indian grocers who import their own stock. Old Spice made in India is, I believe, still made to the old formula and still popular.

I buy it, and prefer it to the insipid Old Spice bought through regular distribution outlets.

[Herbnerd]

I was asked to provide both sets of info. The amount of the ingredients used and the amount of the active too” Such as:

Lauryl Glucoside 50% - 5%

containing: Lauryl Glucoside 2.5%; Water 2.5%

This may just be because our international marketing team didn’t understand what was required.

[Herbnerd]

Toothpaste formulator here.

1. Abrasive silica - are you targeting a specific RDA? In which case that will affect the choice of abrasive silica and the quantity used. If you are using Evonik material there is an RDA/PCR calculator on their silica site. There are a ton of different grades with different abrasivities. You can adjust or mix and match accordingly. You should ensure your toothpaste is safe - we send to University of Indiana’s Oral Health Research Institute for analysis

2 Thickening silica - You will find that this will very much depend on the silica above and also the quantity used. For example if I use a low RDA/PCR silica it also has very low thickening ability (I’m using 7% Thickening silica like zeodent 165) whereas if I have a high abrasive silica, it does not appear to contribute to the viscosity in the same volume used, but I tend to use more of it - in one case I am using 20-24% abrasive silica to about 3% thickening silica.

3. Sorbitol - Depends on the formula - I am using between 13-40%. A lot of this will depend on the aesthetics of the toothpaste. If you want a clear gel, you will need to match the refractive index of the silica. If you are titanium dioxide to give opacity or a FD&C colour this will be less important.

4. Glycerol - We were using around 10-15% as a humectant to stop it drying out. We have used much more than that in some formulations.

5. CMC - Probably about right. But you will need to trial this based on the formula. It will work with the thickening silica.

6. Remaining ingredients - a lot of this will be down to your product preferences and performance. SLS might need adjusting up or down depending on how much it foams and whether you want less or more foam Colour is down to personal preference

7. Fluoride - depending on your market, this may be considered a drug or a cosmetic product. Fluoride in toothpaste in USA, Japan, Korea is a drug, In EU, China, ASEAN Aus, NZ it comes under cosmetics provided 1000 ppm/g is not exceeded. Just check whether you are expressing ppm w/w or ppm w/v.

Trouble is, like many things, there is no-one off the shelf formula. The guts of it look OK, but ultimately so much will depend on the materials you use and the trials you need to do to confirm this.

With silicon dioxide gels, mix under vacuum, then once clear, mix the SLS in last and stir for a few minutes. Otherwise it will go opaque. This may not be a problem if you are producing a white gel.

[Herbnerd]

If you search under Colecalcierol (British spelling) or Cholecalciferol (American spelling) you will see it is listed as an endocrine disrupter.

This is probably the reason it is banned in cosmetics.

https://edlists.org/the-ed-lists/list-i-substances-identified-as-endocrine-disruptors-by-the-eu

edlists.org

Substances identified as endocrine disruptors at EU level

This list contains substances that have undergone the full evaluation process for endocrine disruption as regulated in the EU under the Plant Protection Products Regulation (PPPR), the Biocidal Products Regulation (BPR) or REACH (the Candidate- and Authorization Lists).

[Herbnerd]

I know it is very wordy, complex and very long (spread across four pages).

I am keen to see examples of how others prepare the manufacturing documents, because I am sure it could be so much simpler.

[Herbnerd]

Absolutely agree with you - but as before, ours are far too complex.

[Herbnerd]

Agreed re standard tube being protective packaging; I was thinking more of the airless pumps and other more fancy packaging options that are also being used for packaging toothpaste.

[Herbnerd]

The main terpene in clove oil is β-caryophyllene - nothing I know about that molecule indicated a warming effect.

[Herbnerd]

CMC just produces a more stable gel that works in many manufacturing methods. Xanthan just doesn’t have the same sort of gel strength.

[Herbnerd]

I’d say it is an incomplete INCI - there has to be water in the formulation somewhere - even the liquid castille soap has water in the INCI (or at least it should). But also assuming that the colloidal silver will provide some water.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Herbnerd.