[helenhelen]

Sincityfire said:

Hi, I’m a hobbyist, but I’ve been using Eumulgin SG for the past few months and it’s become one of my favourite emulsifiers.

2) It’s “naked” feeling, I’ve made thin serum emulsions to thick body butters with it. 

3/4) I find it very efficient, even at 0.25% + Cetearyl alcohol can make a nice cream, I’ve only gone as low at 0.25% but I can see it working at 0.1 or 0.2%. Worked really well with Montanov 68 or Olivem 1000. Yes, I find a “wash-out” effect if used too much.

6) I add to oil phase, but it never seems to completely melt - does that happen to you too?

7) I don’t have any experience with polyglyceryl emulsifiers, but yes, I use it alongside other emulsifiers like Montanov 68, Olivem 1000, or Glyceryl Stearate SE and it allows for more space for fatty alcohol which is one of the reasons I like this for body butters. Though it took me a few tries to get it right   

Thanks for putting down your thoughts!

I’ll have to keep an eye out for the wash-out effect then. I tried it at 0.2% on top of two different levels of primary emulsifier and am still waiting for the creams to ripen so I can try them out properly. I find they need at least 3 days.

I’m not sure whether it melted in the oil phase when I tried it either. I heat the oil phase to at least 80°C and didn’t notice any non-melted parts but any Eumulgin SG (especially at that low level) would have just looked like the polymer powder that is also undissolved in the oil phase.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku’s that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper….No industry bias allowed.
Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.

 <3 This is why I like seeing your threads and ponderings @Graillotion . You’re not one to say “Well if x works, why bothering trying anything else?” or get offended if someone has a negative opinion on something you personally enjoy. If everyone had that mentality, new art, music, literature, and new genres of anything would never be made and enjoyed. I understand that in a corporate space, timelines and budgets add constraints to how much experimentation can be done, but if those constraints are not there, why not try new things out?

[helenhelen]

jemolian said:

@helenhelen
Just wondering for the Phyto-Oil C3, what percentage did you test it at? 

I mostly tried 0.3-0.5% because the smell was so strong. Even at those levels the smell came through to the final product!

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

helenhelen said:

I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

I didn’t like the “Soft” version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I’ve never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.

I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

Gosh, you’re a bit harsh, aren’t you? Not sure why you felt the need for that tone.

If you really need to know, in several controlled tests where the only thing I changed was the gum from Cosphaderm X-34 to Cosphaderm X-Soft, I got the unpleasant feel from the Cosphaderm X-Soft. Sometimes I felt maybe I’d somehow made a mistake because the Soft version is used without issue by others, but I would get the same result if tested again. Like I said, it could have been an unexpected interaction with some of the ingredients I was using at the time in the base formulations. Also like I said, the afterfeel was unpleasant for “me”.

[helenhelen]

Just remembered another thing I was wondering:

7) If it *is* quite a naked-feeling emulsifier, could it be used to reduce the level of primary, polyglyceryl emulsifier and allow more space for fatty alcohol and/or heavier ingredients? I’m guessing there is a fine balance between the three components to get a stable but nice-feeling and moisturising emulsion with no wash-out effect… which I will just need to experiment with…

[helenhelen]

@Graillotion said:

 Great read…and thank you for all that great feedback.  I always enjoy reading your responses. 

First question…if you don’t like X-gum Soft…what version did you like…just straight up X-gum….or clear?

Thank you for the Skinchakra links…very good reads….HOWEVER… now I will have to try Solagum AX!

That and I will of course have to ask the question…If Acacia and sclerotium both enhance the feel of X-gum…. What would happen if you combined Acacia and sclerotium?     

No problem - I always enjoy seeing your threads and everyone’s responses to them!

I used Cosphaderm X-34 which is marketed as a premium clear xanthan. I remember there was actually a difference between Cosphaderm X-34 and the generic “xanthan clear/transparent” I tried… it seemed more refined and less smelly and even less coloured.

@Cst4Ms4Tmps4 used to say Jungbunzlauer xanthan gums were the best.. he is based in Asia. In this PDF (also attached), you can see how many grades of xanthan gum can be available… which I think in general you can map to Cosphaderm xanthans.. e.g. I would guess Cosphaderm X-34 is “XG FFCS-PC” or “XG FEDCS-PC” (agglomerated) and Cosphaderm X-Soft is “XG FFCSP-PC”. Not very catchy names!

https://www.jungbunzlauer.com/fileadmin/content/_PDF/PRINT_PROJECTS/Flyer/JBL_FL_Rheology_control_for_personal_care_products_2013_V1.pdf

I was also interested in acacia gum and Solagum AX but never tried it in the end as I was put off by the reports of acacia being quite a common allergy.

[helenhelen]

I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

I didn’t like the “Soft” version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I’ve never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.

1) I definitely preferred xanthan and sclerotium gum together. Xanthan is as you know stringy and contributes to soaping. Adding sclerotium (I used Amigum) helped on both aspects…

2) … But sclerotium on its own wasn’t great, as it forms too much of a springy blancmange texture and has a firmer, heavier/richer feel with more residue.. it needs xanthan gum to soften those aspects. Xanthan is also meant to provide better stability.

3) Not sure, but if I remember correctly, SkinChakra felt the combination worked well for stability:

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/438-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-I.html

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html

4) Pullulan is film-forming… I think it might be used as a skin-tightening ingredient in some formulations? I didn’t like the feel of Ecogel/Siligel due to the pullulan. It also turns slimy on the skin when water touches the skin later, after application.

5) I think lecithin was included so that users could try to use Ecogel/Siligel as an emulsifier… perhaps more for serums rather than creams. The manufacturer claims lecithin also gives a nice feel.. the “phospholipid touch” or something if I remember correctly. I found Ecogel/Siligel more draggy than a simple xanthan/sclerotium blend.

6) I found 50:50 a good ratio. More xanthan is stringy and soapy, and more sclerotium is heavier and springy.

Just to add, I was using the gums for a body cream.. so all these observations were more noticeable as I was slathering samples over large areas of skin. They might not be so noticeable in a face cream that is used a bit more delicately.

[helenhelen]

helenhelen said:

Perry said:

@helenhelen - based on the ingredient list, that hair botox is simply a hair conditioner. https://cocochoco.ie/product/cocochoco-hair-botox-1000ml-clarifying-shampoo/&nbsp; I imagine you could get the same results or better if you just use a flat iron and a standard hair conditioner.

@Perry I agree the ingredients list looks nothing special and I was sceptical but honestly it worked a charm on my hair. I don’t think I would dare try the same method using a standard conditioner… although you could be right that it would have a similar effect… I will never know though unless someone else tries it! Also the cost of the treatment was mostly the labour cost of a stylist doing the hair washing, application, drying and flat ironing… it would be a huge mess and pretty arduous work doing it myself.

@Perry Definitely would have tested out the
method using a standard conditioner if I were in my teens though! Not that I would have needed it back then with naturally youthful locks… sigh

[helenhelen]

Perry said:

@helenhelen - based on the ingredient list, that hair botox is simply a hair conditioner. https://cocochoco.ie/product/cocochoco-hair-botox-1000ml-clarifying-shampoo/&nbsp; I imagine you could get the same results or better if you just use a flat iron and a standard hair conditioner.

@Perry I agree the ingredients list looks nothing special and I was sceptical but honestly it worked a charm on my hair. I don’t think I would dare try the same method using a standard conditioner… although you could be right that it would have a similar effect… I will never know though unless someone else tries it! Also the cost of the treatment was mostly the labour cost of a stylist doing the hair washing, application, drying and flat ironing… it would be a huge mess and pretty arduous work doing it myself.

[helenhelen]

Sorry, no help on the chemistry side but I was wondering if your wife has looked into “Brazilian straightening” or “hair botox” instead of relaxers. They shouldn’t damage the hair or scalp as much. I recently had a “hair botox” treatment which took a couple of hours at the salon and it transformed my hair back into how it looked in my 20’s… sleek, glossy and straight instead of the damaged, dry haystack it had become over the years. The straightening effect is not as severe as Brazilian straightening… it just gets rid of frizz and kinks (even in humidity), but it is apparently not damaging to hair either. The product was called Cocochoco Professional Hair Botox - https://cocochocoprofessional.uk/products/cocochoco-hair-botox-500ml

[helenhelen]

After you’ve dispersed it in glycerin, it is then treated as a water soluble component. It’s already 80% water on its own.

Here’s a couple of documents you might find useful:

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/TechnicalReports/TR028.pdf

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS09-013.pdf

Floratech have loads of sample formulations as well on their site.

[helenhelen]

Oh wow 3 minutes playtime would be too long for me too. I am a frequent user of cream on my dry hands so I need to apply and move on. For me there needs to be enough playtime that I can spread it over every millimetre of skin easily but then it needs to not require any further rubbing in or waiting to dry or “absorb”. That’s probably 10-15 seconds of playtime.

Do you know what’s giving the long play time?

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

helenhelen said:

@ggpetrov I’ve never used Glyceryl Stearate SE before but have used Tego Care 450. How do the two compare for you in terms of application and afterfeel?

Tego care 450 used alone, tends to give a “rich” emulsions, which are very occlusive. By adding GMS SE, the emulsions become lighter and fast absorbing but with a strong moisturizing effect. I use 1 part Tego care 450 and 2-3 parts GMS SE.

@ggpetrov Interesting, thanks for that. Sounds like I should try it.

[helenhelen]

ggpetrov said:

“nice skin feel” is too uncertain. If we are talking about a short absorbtion time, no stickiness, no shine and a “moist” feel, then my favourite is Glyceryl stearate SE. Because of its unstable nature, usually I mix it with another high HLB emulsifier, for example - Emulsan, or Tego care 450. Also you can try to combine it with the Olivem, but Olivem in the water phase and no soaping will appear.

@ggpetrov I’ve never used Glyceryl Stearate SE before but have used Tego Care 450. How do the two compare for you in terms of application and afterfeel?

[helenhelen]

This Josie Maran body butter is pink, which I think is from alkanet root powder, although the product description makes it sound like it is from the pink algae extract (Dunaliella Salina Extract).

[helenhelen]

Look up MultiMEG as well.

[helenhelen]

RedCoast said:

I intended to reply earlier, but life caught up with me. xD

Keep in mind that highly pigmented oils don’t necessarily pigment the skin if you dilute it enough and add the right polymers if needed… we only apply lotions thinly enough anyway (at least, I hope so!) and our skin does have color, so it would usually  “disappear”. I’m fairly pale (Fitzpatrick II) and I noticed a slight orange coloration on my face at 10% concentration.

RedCoast said:

abierose said:

Would adding Lauryl Laurate help counteract that yellow color? It tends to make things ultra white…????‍♀️

I used myristyl myristate at the time, and it did “whiten” it a bit… I didn’t experiment with the coloration too much, because I liked the orange/golden color! Montanov L could help if the orange bothers you too much.

If you happen to get a “super pigmented” batch of sea buckthorn oil, you will likely needreduce the percentage or change up your other ingredients a bit.

It’s not so much the colouration of the skin, but more the colour of the emulsion - it just looks so much more “refreshing” when it’s off-white!

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

Hey….I came across something that really has me puzzled.  This oil….seems to lubricate skin at a crazy level…both in what feels like moisturizing…and durability….I mean hours….and hours….

https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/carrier-oils/tamanu-carrier-oil-virgin-vietnam.html

Now keep in mind…and you can check with @Pharma on this one….(it might be a nut oil).  But when I was kidding about making an industrial strength hand cream….this immediately came to mind.

Couple of notes….they sell several versions….and I have gotten I think 3….and this is the ONLY one that behaves in that manner.  It also has a reasonable amount of color and scent…(not awesome in my opinion…hehehe.)  I use this in a pain cream that has a VERY strong scent…so it does not come through. 

But if you are having trouble finding a natural oil…that seriously does something….worth a look.

Nothing super exciting in the fatty acid profile…just another Oleic on paper….but on the skin….hmmmn!

Thanks for the tip! I will try it out one day. Everything my skin like seems to be strong smelling or strong coloured.

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

Avocado oil on my skin feels oily and sticky, mac nut oil is just wonderful, smooth, and sinks in beautifully without that drag most others have. Hard to describe…

I have dicaprylyl carbonate and it does feel pretty much like all the other low viscosity ester oils. It is a ‘double ester’ wherein the acid part is carbonic acid instead of a fatty acid. I have no idea why it does what it does on your skin. However, its structure is somewhat different and its interactions with skin are expected to be different too. Still, I’m somewhat astonished and will do a trial, neat, carbonate against ester oils, next time I take the bottle into my hands (if I don’t forget to). I should also ask my wife to participate, her skin sounds like yours… I often joke that she could survive simply by using body lotion instead of eating.

@Pharma Refined avocado oil doesn’t feel sticky to me at all.. maybe due to my dry skin soaking it all up! Maybe slightly “oily” but not uncomfortably so. I found unrefined avocado oil very thick and sticky though… I only used it a very long time ago. I am intrigued by your description of macadamia nut oil… will hopefully get to try it this week!

Dicaprylyl carbonate (and products I’ve bought containing it) feels more “plastic” on my skin than other esters… in a good way, like a thin, flexible film, rather than liquid/oily. I only notice that my skin prefers it (in terms of moisturisation) to other esters after a while (days, weeks) either from using it consistently for that time and noticing my skin is much softer, or using it and then switching to another esters and realising my skin doesn’t have the same softer anymore.

Haha @ surviving on body lotion instead of eating! I sometimes have a crazy, irrational thought that the calories from the amount of cream I apply could be entering through my skin, and that I will slowly become obese.

[helenhelen]

@Pharma @Graillotion How does macadamia oil feel compared to avocado oil?

@Graillotion I keep swinging between 1 and 1.5% illipe butter. The skin on my hands is so dry, it just soaks humectants and oil up and I literally never make fingerprints  . Before the pandemic when I actually took flights, the airport immigration officers would be puzzled by my lack of fingerprints on the machines and ask me to rub my fingers on my face then try again.

@Pharma On the topic of esters not being used for moisturisation, what do you think of dicaprylyl carbonate? It’s one of the few vegetable oil alternatives that I can add without making a cream drying on my skin, and I like the cushioned afterfeel. I notice BASF describe it as a “carbonate” rather than an “ester”. Is there any reason why dicaprylyl carbonate would be less drying on my skin (when replacing a vegetable oil) than most other esters?

[helenhelen]

@Pharma Many thanks for the detailed information about nuts… I have to admit I can never remember what is a real nut or not, and which are related or not. I use my sister as a reference for “nut” allergies as she has a moderate to severe allergy to almond and cashew nuts and various other “nuts” (of which my memory can never retain). She definitely avoids almond oil in cosmetics, but has said she would only “probably” avoid macadamia oil.

@Pharma @Graillotion I have considered the Floratech macadamia oil many times… and have always stopped myself from requesting a sample in case I like it. But *sigh* you have convinced me I should at least try it.

I have tried ethyl macadamiate. It doesn’t offer my skin any moisturisation as such, I would only ever use it for the feel as it’s very light and fast spreading. But I didn’t feel it offered any benefit over other fast spreading esters. I can’t remember exactly but I think it also absorbed too quickly for me. I am usually trying to extend playtime rather than speed up absorption!

@Graillotion I am also using illipe butter thanks to your raves about it. What concentration range do you find yourself using it at for a hand/body cream? Do you use much more than 1-1.5%?

[helenhelen]

@Pharma @Graillotion Thanks both. I have been avoiding nut products, which is why I haven’t already used macadamia nut oil despite its palmitoleic acid content… I am always tempted but then I am worried I will love it and not be able to add it in the final product. Apparently Phytosteryl Macadamiate (which I have tried) has 20% palmitoleic acid as well… but I’ve never got it to not feel heavy in a cream.

I am using avocado oil at the moment for the palmitoleic acid.. and it’s fine but sea buckthorn oil has a much nicer, more neutral afterfeel instead of the slightly oilier afterfeel of avocado oil.

@RedCoast I haven’t actually tried the sea buckthorn oil in an emulsion yet - I can tell even 1% will make it yellow! I should try it though…

[helenhelen]

Pharma said:

Unlikely. Too costly in refined/purified form. Eat fatty coldwater fish or use sea buckthorn pulp oil .

Oh shame, I thought that might be the case. I like the effect of sea buckthorn oil on the skin, but the colour is just too intense!

[helenhelen]

An example of what I mean is probably why you like Floraesters K-20W. It increases and extends moisturisation, but it doesn’t impart any feel. I like that.

[helenhelen]

@abierose Aww I feel like I don’t really deserve to be in that list, but I’m glad you have found something I’ve said useful at some point! I’m not a chemist, but an avid skincare user, and I’ve also been trying my hand at making body creams due to nothing on the market working for my unusually dry body and hand skin. It’s become a slight obsession, trying to perfect the moisturisation performance and feel of this cream for my needs.

I’m also very grateful for this forum (and the archives!), for both the experienced chemists and formulators giving up their time to pass on their wisdom, and also the less experienced and hobbyists who ask the questions that bring up interesting discussions and solutions. I don’t really have anyone that I can bounce ideas around with in person, so this forum has been invaluable to me.