[helenhelen]

Agree on a “Thank you” button, rather than “Like”. If it’s my own thread/question that someone is responding to, I always try to reply to thank people for their time. But if it’s someone else’s thread (and often if it’s an old thread), and I got a lot out of someone’s reply, I always feel there is no way to show my appreciation without clogging up the thread.. so then I do nothing.

[helenhelen]

@Graillotion Flattered that you think I might be able to help . Alas, I can’t use any commercial skincare products these days because my skin does not like the usual emulsifiers and fatty alcohols at all, so I don’t have any recent product reviews for you…

However I still like to look at products that I can’t personally use and I would say that people these days seem to be quite forgiving on what a “body butter” contains and how it feels, as long as it moisturises and feels nice to apply. Brands are certainly very flexible on what they are calling body butters. The general take is a body cream but with higher amount of high melting point ingredients to give a firmer texture, where the user has to press a bit harder to dig out product from the tub, and where a visible dent is left afterwards. Most of the mass market “body butters” in the UK have a negligible amount of butter e.g. this from Dove, and this from Garnier.

The Body Shop still use a high percentage of shea and cocoa butter in their classic (emulsified) body butter ranges. I’m guessing you’ve tried them and experienced how greasy/primitive they feel (they do look and smell nice though). They often bring out limited edition “whipped butters” (e.g. this one at the moment) which are nothing like their classic body butters. To me they look and feel like lotions/creams with a ton of gelling agents (they always use Sodium Polyacrylate in their “whipped” products)… the products have some translucency and are slightly gelatinous.. not at all premium looking or feeling. Anyway, The Body Shop is not a great benchmark, but their classic products are still worth looking at to improve on.

A brand well known in the US for their body butters is Josie Maran. You can see in the photos and INCI that the original Whipped Argan Oil Body Butter is really just a thick cream, and no-one cares that it’s not made up of butters. I always liked the description and marketing of their Whipped Argan Pro-Retinol Body Butter - it’s made to sound so lush. Great marketing. The brand seems to use the terms cream and butter interchangeably e.g. in this product - Intensive Hydration Body Cream.

Did you find any nice products to benchmark?

[helenhelen]

PhilGeis said:

No.  Recall it’s not that effective in product.

Ah that’s a shame. Thanks @PhilGeis

[helenhelen]

@Pattsi Thanks. Interesting that the order of ingredients is different on the physical packaging for that serum.

I had a quick look at the Pacifica packaging and it’s the same order as listed online.

[helenhelen]

@MarkBroussard Thank you. I thought that might be the case… but it just seemed odd that so many products have the same improper labelling.

[helenhelen]

Anca_Formulator said:

@helenhelen  I really appreciate your input on this. Some very neat suggestions. I will try them and report back!

 Which Versagel? There are several made with those 2 copolymers. I think the one you are referring to is the ME 500 T? MN750 looks interesting too (Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylene/Propylene/Styrene Copolymer (and) Butylene/Ethylene/Styrene Copolymer)

I discovered that cushiony feeling when I tried Laneige overnight lip mask (I got a free sample at Sephora as I was perusing the ‘clean beauty’ shelves). I was surprised how much I liked it.   

https://us.laneige.com/products/lip-sleeping-mask?gclid=Cj0KCQjw_7KXBhCoARIsAPdPTfhBApIKCBlNSdCf20MUyC7OhMdpf2Sw2ZimFUHvxEuHaYBXg2i352MaArFiEALw_wcB

This UK site sells their lip gloss base as “AKA Versagel ME 750” and describes it as “very thick”: https://www.evestore.co.uk/products/lip-gloss-base#details

I’m always surprised there are so many lip balm/mask products being sold because since I started using pure lanolin at least 12 years ago instead of any other balm, I’ve never looked back! It’s so simple yet so effective and I’m sure it would solve most people’s dry lips if they just tried it (except vegans and people who may be allergic obviously). The “nipple balm” branding is not the most glamorous I must admit… but there are brands that have more public-friendly packaging e.g. Lanolips and Dr Lipp.

[helenhelen]

@Anca_Formulator I’m guessing the cushiony feel you’re wanting is coming from the Ethylene/Propylene/Styrene Copolymer (and) Butylene/Ethylene/Styrene Copolymer. These are components in Versagel which is sold as a lip gloss base along with the Hydrogenated Polyisobutene (that you add other oils, pigments etc to)… I haven’t tried it although was thinking to try it in a body cream. It’s very easily found for purchase in small amounts online - maybe worth you buying just for something to compare other ingredients to!

I have several of the thick, tacky, adhesive “natural” ingredients mentioned in this thread, as my skin tends to like the lanolin-like moisturisation/protection they give. But none feel cushiony like lip gloss, which is what I am assuming Versagel feels like.

Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-2 and Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-1 are marketed as vegetable-derived lanolin substitutes by the way.. so they might still be worth you trying? Of the two, I prefer Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-1 which is a thick, gloopy liquid at room temperature, a bit like slightly melted lanolin, and my skin likes it. It’s probably good in a lip balm.. runnier than lip gloss though. Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-2 is semi-soft solid at room temperature but not gloopy and lubricious like lipgloss.

I think your best starting point is any of the lanolin substitutes rather than waxes. I would try oil gellants with Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-1 so that it doesn’t melt or absorb too quickly on the lips. Or even just start with pure lanolin (just saw that you’re not going for “vegan”) - lanolin is my personal favourite as a lip balm… I just use Medela Purelan which doesn’t smell and doesn’t go rancid like other lanolins I’ve tried.

[helenhelen]

Also try with the Montanov 202 in the oil phase rather than water phase.

[helenhelen]

Why do you want to make a product yourself? Is there nothing you’ve found on the market that works for you?

Before you go down the long, winding DIY route, try Percy & Reed I’m No Flake Scalp Soothing Shampoo… it’s the best shampoo I’ve ever used for my sensitive scalp. The Body Shop Ginger Anti-Dandruff Shampoo used to be good, but they recently reformulated it and it’s awful now (literally causes scalp itchiness, greasiness and flakes instead of preventing them).

[helenhelen]

mizzm said:

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

I am more interested….to hear what you kept…and why. 

I didn’t keep much! I found all of these emulsifiers really easy to use and to get a good result but unfortunately my skin is sensitive to emulsifiers and fatty alcohols/acids, including when using commercial products. I’ve resorted to using separate water phases and oil phases (as serum and oil) on my body with no emulsifiers until I find an emulsifier my skin doesn’t mind  . I’m going to explore silicone-based W/O emulsifiers next. 

But if you are interested, I think the combination of:

Plurol Stearique MB + Montanov 202 + Behenyl Alcohol + Cutina PES + Sepinov EMT 10/Cosmedia SP (Sodium Polyacrylate)/Siligel would have made a really nice looking and feeling cream.

thanks for saying this @helenhelen. I started making things because of my issues with face moisturizers not working for me..i mean even the Clinique moisture surge (has AVC, c10-30, oleth 10) which i think has the lightest ingredients and oil free. At first, i thought it was fungal acne but when you mentioned this I realized its the same with me, separating serum and oil - i get no issues at all. Guess i just need to test each of my emulsifiers and thickeners see which is ok. 

@mizzm Don’t feel that you have to use a “cream” on your skin. I haven’t used “creams” on my face for probably a decade. Separate serums + oils have always left my face skin looking nicer and it’s only recently that I’ve realised why. The only emulsions I use on my face are commercial SPFs. But for body skincare, creams are much easier to apply so that’s what I’ve been trying to solve for myself.

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

I use electric ice cream makers.  I am lazy (or smart).

I have several sizes….they make tiny ones that are perfect for my 150 gram batches.

@Graillotion I love this idea!!

[helenhelen]

ngarayeva001 said:

Guys, I really wanted to make it a post but it won’t be appropriate I guess. I found a supplier in Thailand. They sell ingredients that are impossible to find anywhere else at DIY amounts. I already ordered from them and they delivered to London for £36 (took only 6 days). They provide all documentation and the packaging is not bad (DIY suppliers are often horrible with packaging). I am not affiliated with them in any shape or form but I always struggle with finding synthetic ingredients (I know they all are synthetic, I am referring to PEGs, Silicones and other “free-from” ingredients) and I tried them, so they are reliable.

https://myskinrecipes.com/ 

I know cheesy name. They don’t have MOQ, accept Paypal and deliver quickly. They have PEG-10 Dimethicone and other W/Si emulsifiers, Esters that I couldn’t find anywhere else, Hydrocarbons and silicones that I haven’t seen anywhere else (stearyl dimethicone). They have pure amodimethicone (not an emulsion but an oil-soluble). They have Isoxehadecane and even oil soluble dyes. Enjoy!

Thanks for the tip! Funnily enough, I had about 15 tabs open on my browser the last two weeks from that website of various interesting-sounding ingredients but I didn’t buy in the end as there was nothing I absolutely *needed*. I ended up on the site as they had something I was googling for that isn’t available from anywhere else… I can’t even remember what it was. But now I know it is a reputable site with fast shipping to the UK, I’ll probably buy from them in the near future.

[helenhelen]

ngarayeva001 said:

Hello there! I am also in west london I don’t need any of the ones you listed but maybe we can share/exchange in future:) I often buy too much and get sad when ingredients expire unused 

That would be brilliant! I always end up with 500g - 1kg of something to try to hit minimum spends, to only ever use 5g. The post-Brexit €200 minimum spend on Glamour Cosmetics was a pretty painful discovery last week 

[helenhelen]

Graillotion said:

I am more interested….to hear what you kept…and why. 

I didn’t keep much! I found all of these emulsifiers really easy to use and to get a good result but unfortunately my skin is sensitive to emulsifiers and fatty alcohols/acids, including when using commercial products. I’ve resorted to using separate water phases and oil phases (as serum and oil) on my body with no emulsifiers until I find an emulsifier my skin doesn’t mind  . I’m going to explore silicone-based W/O emulsifiers next. 

But if you are interested, I think the combination of:

Plurol Stearique MB + Montanov 202 + Behenyl Alcohol + Cutina PES + Sepinov EMT 10/Cosmedia SP (Sodium Polyacrylate)/Siligel would have made a really nice looking and feeling cream.

[helenhelen]

oksanawalker said:

I would love to have them all! I live in the Lake District and I am happy to pay for postage. Please, can I have them?

@oksanawalker If I don’t have someone collect them, I’ll keep you in mind. Really sorry… it’s just a lot of containers and packages that I worry would leak in transit which would be disappointing for the recipient!

[helenhelen]

Formulator said:

Hi, if these are not already promised to someone else, I would be able to pick them up from West London. 😊

I well send you a private message 

[helenhelen]

Lanolin, vegan lanolin..

[helenhelen]

Have a look at the Makimousse and Salanjul ranges (Sodium Polyacrylate Starch).

[helenhelen]

Alexmo sells this which I think is the one you’re looking for? https://www.alexmo-cosmetics.de/Maisita-Corn-PO4-PH-B_1

[helenhelen]

The rice version is available from SkinChakra https://shop.skinchakra.eu/index.php?lang=1&

I’ll keep looking…

[helenhelen]

I would expect that, as MM isn’t a fatty alcohol and sits in the oil droplet rather than plumping out the gel phase of an emulsion. Maybe use both?

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/61651

[helenhelen]

It is much cheaper than $400/kg on Skinchakra.. I think they ship to the US… although not sure how much the shipping is.

These sound like they could be alternative natural mucilage gels:
https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/phytofuse-rejuvenate.html
https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/phytofuse-renew.html

Vegeluron sounds interesting. How does the slip and feel of it compare to Siligel? Is it sticky at all?

 

[helenhelen]

The diagram in the intro in this article is also useful https://www.mdpi.com/2504-5377/2/1/3/htm

[helenhelen]

Hi @Abdullah, I like this blog post which you might find interesting https://realizebeauty.wordpress.com/2018/05/05/the-funny-little-thing-that-is-cetearyl-alcohol/

[helenhelen]

😄 You couldn’t be much further. Shame, as no-one else seems to have shown any interest!