[Gunther]

Thank you guys for your valuable insight.

@Perry so spot on.

[Gunther]

Jini said:

Behentrimonium Methosulfate and Cetearyl Alcohol at 2% is a good alternative if you are willing to add water and a preservative. 

That would provide some conditioning too, if it’s meant for a hairspray.

[Gunther]

For what application?
And why are you looking for alternatives?

Behentrimonium chloride works more or less the same, and so does Cetrimonium chloride.

[Gunther]

Where do you see polysorbates listed in Prop 65 list?
https://oehha.ca.gov/media/downloads/proposition-65//p65list091319.pdf

Maybe you can try some Polysugamulse D9, but I don’t know if you’ll need inordinate amounts of it to solubilize 15% fragrance.

[Gunther]

You can add some SLES 
something like 12% neutralized LABSA, 6% SLES
to thicken it up.

KOH gets cloudier than NaOH
Glycerin serves no purpose.

[Gunther]

kot said:

  Wondering why is BTMS “exact composition is a trade secret,”? INCI: Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetyl Alcohol (and) Butylene Glycol.

Please check out this thread.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/5846/whats-butylene-glycol-function-in-crodas-btms-50/p1

There’s a link to a Croda patent that hints (or entirely discloses) the most probable BTMS composition.

[Gunther]

Probably there’s too much SLES, and maybe too little sulfonic acid too

You just don’t add salt like that. You’d need to conduct a salt-curve experiment to determine the proper amount and conduct some cold temperature tests (fridge without freezing) to check for cloudiness.

You can also conduct an “SLES-curve” experiment to determine the proper SLES amount.
An SLES-only formulation will not cloud, but won’t cut grease as one containing sulfonate does
but increased sulfonate rises cloud point.

Get rid of urea, and replace formalin with another preservative.

[Gunther]

Preservatives should prevent the growth of most bacteria there so there’s no need for heating.

[Gunther]

jamsinekhatri said:

I have made liquid Dishwash. But the problem is that there is a separation after 12 hrs. I don’t know if it is due to mixing or something else. Please guide. Here is my Formulation

Water: 800 ml
Labsa: 80 ml
FD: 1.5%
ETDA: 1.5 gm
UREA: 5gm
Glycerin: 5gm
SLES: 60 gm
AOS: 10 gm
Coco glucoside: 10 gm
Fragrance: qs
Color: qs
Sodium Hydroxide ( For neutralization) pH between : 6-7
Salt: 12 gm

What’s FD and AOS?

Get rid of glycerin. It does nothing but ruin viscosity and foam.

Coco glucoside kills viscosity too, get rid of it.

2% CDEA seems a bit high and may leave a sticky afterfeel.

[Gunther]

Some people swear by Ketoconazole shampoo.

[Gunther]

Royalbre said:

@Gunther Thank you,
My customers want natural products.

The performance, cleansing power, foam, and irritation of everything natural plainly sucks. Synthetics do far better.

To start with, the only true natural surfactants come from plants like soapworth and they’re just inadequate for about any practical application.

Then any other single surfactants is synthetic.
Even “natural” surfactants like polyglucosides or saponified vegetable oil soaps are actually synthetic, even if derived from natural materials.

Vegetable-derived is probably your best bet.

[Gunther]

Maybe they are all buying generic, look-alike bottles and caps, instead of having them custom designed and made?

They can copyright their label designs too.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

@Gunther, I don’t see any difference on my hair. I even have a feeling that it tangles my hair even more. 

Have you compared Cetrimonium chloride to Behentrimonium (either methosulfate or chloride) head to head, i.e. everything else being equal in the rest of the formula?

[Gunther]

Something like
7% active SLES (Sodium laureth sulfate)
2% active SLS (Sodium lauryl sulfate)
3% active CAPB (Cocamidopropylbetaine)
water q.s. to 100%
salt q.s. as needed to thicken it

and it can work as
shampoo
shower gel
mild, non-irritating dishwash
bathroom and surface cleaner
laundry prespotter
and so on.

[Gunther]

Can you buy Cetrimonium chloride (CETAC) there?
If you do, then you can try something like

2.5% active CETAC (8.33% if supplied as 30% active)
3.5% fatty alcohol (cetyl, stearyl or cetostearyl)
1% Silicone
Polyquaterniums and other conditioning agents as needed.

The fatty alcohol should thicken it.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

I guess it’s a matter of personal preferences. I don’t like cetrimonium chloride at all.  However comparing Behentrimonium Chloride and BTMS, I think the chloride is more conditioning.

May I ask why you don’t like Cetrimonium chloride?

[Gunther]

ketchito said:

Among the common anionic surfactants, LABS is the most hydrophobic (due to the aromatic ring). Addition of electrolytes (like NaCl) makes it even more hydrophobic and prone to precipitation, since Na+ ions neutralize the negative charge of SO3-, which is the water soluble part of the molecule; that’s why the more NaCl is added, the lower the cloud point. 

One thing to work around this problem (without using an hydrotrope which impair foam and performance) is to neutralize it with TEA, since TEA-alkylbenzene sulfonate is more soluble than its sodium counterpart. You can use only TEA (more expensive), or a mixture of TEA and NaOH. Another way is to change the ratio LABS/LESS (a good starting point is 8:2, and to improve solubility, you can increase LESS and reduce LABS). 

Also, keep in mind that some surfactants have hidden amounts of NaCl, like Betaines and Amine oxides. Interestingly, Lauramidopropylamine oxide allows lower cloud points than the other amine oxides, while producing more foam and even helps build more viscosity. Besides amine oxides, olefin sulfonates and sultaines also help achieve more foam at low doses. There are also some polymers which are very useful, such as Sokalan HP20 and Supracare 801.

pH also plays a major part, since pH lower than 5 make Betaines and Amine oxides behave as cationics, clouding the product right away; for better clarity, a pH above 8 is advised.

You’re right!
I just tried 15 and 20% LABSA neutralized with TEA and they was clear (if neutralized with Sodium hydroxide they would have been cloudy)

They were clear even with 0.5% salt, albeit -TEA viscosities were lower than those for -Sodium.
While I still need to conduct a salt curve and cost analysis, but this quick experiment shows you were totally right.

[Gunther]

Oladoo said:

Hello,

Plese, between Polyquarternium-37 and BTMS-50 which is more conditioning?
I’ve used BTMS-50 at 1.5% concentration, but it shrank my hair so much that when the hair dried it became hard to comb

So it really shrank your hair?
What else is in the formula?

[Gunther]

It depends on what specific ingredient do you want to prevent from oxidizing.
Sometimes it ain’t real oxidation, just chemical degradation trough other pathways.

[Gunther]

Silicones are much harder to emulsify than oils
The HLB system doesn’t work well with silicones.

You may wish to stick to existing formulations proven to be able to emulsify silicones.
You may wish to consider cationic emulsions, like BTMS or Cetrimonium chloride + fatty alcohols.

[Gunther]

Sibech said:

@Royalbre That is very very cheap, so cheap in fact that I would either: A) Find another one or Get the contract read through by another chemist to check for what is NOT included in that price and a lawyer to make sure it is enforcable.

Agree. That’s cheap, unless he’s located in a developing country where $500 is a lot of money.

Anyone can copy/paste formulas from the Internet
but a real chemist will:

- Tell you exactly where to buy all the required chemicals in your specific country/region
- Provide some insight on how to manufacture large batches of it. Large scale manufacturing is a bit different than mixing small amounts in a beaker.
Probably the above are not included and mean an extra fee. Totally worth the extra fee, by the way.

[Gunther]

ketchito said:

Among the common anionic surfactants, LABS is the most hydrophobic (due to the aromatic ring). Addition of electrolytes (like NaCl) makes it even more hydrophobic and prone to precipitation, since Na+ ions neutralize the negative charge of SO3-, which is the water soluble part of the molecule; that’s why the more NaCl is added, the lower the cloud point. 

One thing to work around this problem (without using an hydrotrope which impair foam and performance) is to neutralize it with TEA, since TEA-alkylbenzene sulfonate is more soluble than its sodium counterpart. You can use only TEA (more expensive), or a mixture of TEA and NaOH. Another way is to change the ratio LABS/LESS (a good starting point is 8:2, and to improve solubility, you can increase LESS and reduce LABS). 

Also, keep in mind that some surfactants have hidden amounts of NaCl, like Betaines and Amine oxides. Interestingly, Lauramidopropylamine oxide allows lower cloud points than the other amine oxides, while producing more foam and even helps build more viscosity. Besides amine oxides, olefin sulfonates and sultaines also help achieve more foam at low doses. There are also some polymers which are very useful, such as Sokalan HP20 and Supracare 801.

pH also plays a major part, since pH lower than 5 make Betaines and Amine oxides behave as cationics, clouding the product right away; for better clarity, a pH above 8 is advised.

Very very interesting.
Thank you for posting that.

Do you have some references or interesting reads on that?

[Gunther]

Cetrimonium doesn’t seem to be too different from Behentrimonium
both work good enough
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/5938/anyone-else-believes-cetac-fatty-alcohol-is-more-detangling-and-conditioning-than-btms/p1

So for a rinse off product you can try something like
- Cetrimonium/Behentrimonium 2-3% (in an active basis, check to see how much active ingredient it has as supplied).
- fatty alcohol 3-4 %
- silicone 1-2%
- preservative

[Gunther]

This one seems to favor CETAC over Behentrimonium

Cetrimonium chloride gives a light texture, and behetrimonium makes the hair too heavy.
(Page 171)

… but after reading this

they seem to contradict themselves:

In the first paragraph they state that behentrimonium chloride is a good emulsifier (which it is), but in the last paragraph they say that Behenyl (C22) is a weak emulsifier and cannot produce cream by itself (?)
So I wonder if they really know what they’re talking about.
(Page 142)

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=QvDxRLtnXVQC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Gunther]

bella82 said:

Gunther, I am going to try out the leave on. But please, am pretty new to formulating and I don’t know what qs would stand for. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_satis
Meaning “as needed, but not more than that”
Even some chemists mistake qs for Quantity Sufficient, although at the end that’s what they meant.