[Gunther]

BTMS50 + silicone ranks among the top detanglers conditioners

How much are you using @Marynicole

[Gunther]

Are you aware how expensive natural vanilla became?

You may wish to consider using caramel as a colorant.
It’s cheaper, more widely used and more stable
yet totally natural.

[Gunther]

@haroon if it keeps on clouding, you may wish to switch to Potassium hydroxide instead of Sodium hydroxide.
The former makes more soluble sulfonates.

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/4804/should-i-dilute-sulfonic-acid-before-neutralizing-it-with-sodium-hydroxide

[Gunther]

Upon diluting by half with water
most (but maybe not all) test formulations became crystal clear light yellow
so it looks like they’re too concentrated and some of it it’s precipitating out of solution.

Not for nothing they advise to use Potassium hydroxide in premium, more concentrated formulations:

The potassium analogue (potassium carbonate, potassium silicate and potassium hydroxide) is used for the liquid detergents due to their higher solubility. 
http://surfactantschemistry.blogspot.com/2013/07/laundry-detergents-formulation.html

How It Works

For the surfactant part of the formula we need a well-rounded and balanced combination that can clean various kinds of soils. I suggest we use a combination of linear alkyl benzene sulfonate (Pilot’s LAS-99 neutralized with potassium hydroxide)…

Let us go to the lab and prepare a sample of the premium 3X liquid laundry detergent. First add deionized water (29.15%), followed by potassium hydroxide 45% solution (6.1%) 
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2012-04-02/formulating-liquid-laundry-detergents

[Gunther]

It looks like Malassezia hydrolyzes (breaks down) triglycerides to their fatty acids
but not all people (except those that suffer from dandruff) react badly to fatty acids.
In fact stearic acid and other fatty acids are used in creams, and most people do fine with them.

So the big problem isn’t Malassezia (or any other fungus), rather the exaggerate adverse reaction to free fatty acids.

So it looks like those suffering from Seborrheic Dermatitis should avoid all oils (not just olive oil) and all creams with fatty acids.

To complicate things even more, some (roughly half) of SD sufferers, improve with oils, albeit the other half do even worse.

https://morganwlfc.wordpress.com/2015/03/18/malassezia-theory-the-oil-paradox-and-how-asthma-could-improve-our-understanding-of-seborrheic-dermatitis/

[Gunther]

@DAS  very funny, yet true story
here’s the transcript

Man sues Lynx after failing to pull in seven years

A LUCKLESS romeo has sued cosmetics firm Lynx after he failed to land a girlfriend during seven years of using their products.

Indian Vaibhav Bedi, 26, is seeking £50,000 from parent company Unilever for the “depression and psychological damage” caused by the lack of any Lynx effect.

Court officials in New Delhi have accepted dozens of half-used body washes, shampoos, anti-perspirants and hair gels for forensic tests.

Lynx - marketed as Axe in India - is famous for its saucy ads showing barely clothed women throwing themselves at men.

Vaibhav said in his court petition: “The company cheated me because in its advertisements, it says women will be attracted to you if you use Axe. I used it for seven years but no girl came to me.”

Unilever refused to comment on the case.

But India’s leading compensation lawyer Ram Jethmalani said: “There is no data to substantiate the supposition that unattractive and unintelligent men don’t attract women.

“In fact, some of the bestlooking women have been known to marry and date absolutely ghoulish guys.

“I’d suggest the firm settle this issue out of court.”

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/man-sues-lynx-after-failing-1040700

I wonder if the out of court settlement will include Will Smith date couching charges

[Gunther]

Ain’t PQ-10 too much at 1%?
Assuming it’s 1% active ingredient.

If you already tried PQ-10 and it ain’t conditioning enough for you,
then silicones are the next step.
If that fails too, then co-wash or cleansing conditioners seem unavoidable.

[Gunther]

@Fekher there’s a scientific study where they show that coconut oil absorption is incomplete even after leaving hair tresses undisturbed for 24 hours (undisturbed is not attainable in real life)

So, unless your customers are willing to sleep with a plastic sheet on their pillow or something to avoid staining it,
the best option is likely going to be a leave-on spray with some oils in it. 

Sprays need to be water-thin for them to flow trough the nozzle
and oils are, well, oily as previously mentioned
so the main solvent should NOT be oil, for practicality.

You can easily emulsify oils in a water based spray, easily done.
When I have more time I will keep on developing an oil containing spray where the main solvent is cyclomethicone instead of water ( I got a feeling that C12-C15 alkylbenzoate can help).

[Gunther]

@Microformulation
“promoting attractiveness” ?
Will you get sued if they no dates, or at least some flirtatious compliments on the street?

I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist
Thank you so much @Microformulation  for your informative posts.

[Gunther]

Is that a rinse off conditioner?

I got a theory that most things won’t work to condition hair in rinse-off products, unless they are cationic.
Rinse off products are left for such a short time, that they need to be attracted to hair = cationic. Oils and glycerin won’t do much for the previously quoted reason.

Sure there are exceptions, like silicones, fatty alcohols. They are a bit conditioning, yet non cationic.

[Gunther]

Microformulation said:

Here is the issue. Soaps and surfactants are so different that you need to treat them as vastly separate and dissimilar products.

I would avoid Decyl Glucoside as a primary surfactant. As many have pointed out, it is an irritant. Also, it has much negative marketing bias. There are numerous other better surfactants.

Shampoos have a significant aqueous portion and a favorable pH for many water-based products which can ameliorate the irritation. (No, I am not listing a bunch for anyone, research, research, research, no freebies here, we all do this for money in real life). Also, the list is expansive and there are too many sub-details regarding each material. 

So active CAPBetaine % should be higher than glucoside to remain nonirritating?
What percentages of the above would you use, ballpark?

@Fekher
there’s a Evonik PDF file on Tego Betain F 50 that says that when CAPB concentration becomes 80-90% of the total surfactants, irritation is the lowest

http://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/DS_TEGO_Betain_F_50_e.pdf

Now, high CAPB feels a bit slimy, so you may wish to add something else, probably glucosides.

[Gunther]

Update:

I bought LABSA from another supplier
the liquid is a bit thinner and goes into solution slightly faster (still takes hours or evernight), but the cloudiness problems remain.

I’m conducting tests, changing all the variables and taking detailed notes.

@Fekher what % of salt would you use to speed up LABSA dissolution?

[Gunther]

RenKB said:

That being said, I have had luck with HEC thickening another glucoside based product (though significantly more HEC in that).

@RenKB what other things (besides HEC) have you tried to thicken glucosides?

[Gunther]

You don’t want a mostly glycerin formulation on your skin.
Pure or highly concentrated glycerin is actually drying to the skin and may cause irritation or even blisters if left on too long.

[Gunther]

Formalin is a banned substance and a known carcinogen
a sure way to get yourself sued.
Switch to another preservative.

[Gunther]

Most people use Sodium Benzoate instead of bare Benzoic acid which ain’t as soluble and might precipitate.

[Gunther]

HPMC does increase viscosity a bit
albeit IDK if HPMC will be enough to thicken glucosides, you can try to substitute HEC for HPMC to see if it works.

[Gunther]

First, would you mind sharing what the formula is, so that we’re all in the same page?

[Gunther]

@luiscuevasii the paper mentions Sodium, not ammonium bicarbonate.
AFAIK baking soda ain’t a restricted chemical.

[Gunther]

That’s interesting because Ammonium carbonate/bicarbonate don’t seem to be in the chemical precursors list

at least not in Category I or II listed below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEA_list_of_chemicals

https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/schedules/orangebook/f_chemlist_alpha.pdf

While I read that junkies use Sodium bicarbonate to make crack from cocaine
Sodium bicarbonate ain’t a controlled chemical AFAIK. 

[Gunther]

You can conduct a Iodine test yourself to test for unsaturated carbon bonds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine_value

It’s actually a simple test to conduct.
Just be careful not to spill the Iodine. Place a tray underneath in case a spill were to happen.

[Gunther]

@Belassi do you know if it’s Potassium itself the one that becomes yellow
or it’s other substances in the formulation turning yellow upon exposure to K sorbate?

[Gunther]

I got a theory that for short acting formulations, like shampoos and conditioners which are left on hair for just a few minutes (some people only leave them a few seconds), cationics are kind of attracted by hair.

Normal silicones like dimethicone and dimethiconol aren’t supposed to do much on paper, but their effect is noticeable in the real world.

You can try Amodimethicone. Both a silicone and amine-functionalized which makes it cationic in water solution. Best of both worlds.
You’d likely need cationic surfactants to keep amodimethicone in solution.

[Gunther]

Update: adding citric acid to lower pH to 6, it didn’t redissolve the milky white precipitate.

@Chemist77 will do. I definitely need to switch suppliers to see if it gets better.

[Gunther]

Update:

This time I prediluted LABSA (makes a thick, pale brown liquid)
Then poured NaOH little by little, like 1/10th of the total NaOH amount at a time.

At first, LABSA form a white swirl, which seems to dissapear after stirring.

But in the last NaOH additions, it formed the dreaded milky white solution
so it seems that excess NaOH degrades LABSA.

I found some literature that says that sulfonic acids may react with excess NaOH may create Sodium phenoxide, but high temperature was supposed to be required.

http://staff.um.edu.mt/ratk1/BenzeneSulphonicAcids.htm

https://chemistry.tutorvista.com/organic-chemistry/benzenesulfonic-acid.html

@Fekher
The 2.31% NaOH was used because it will neutralize some other acids in the formula too (citric and oleic acids)
Next time I’ll add LABSA the last thing, as to avoid excess NaOH.