[grapefruit22]

They are less effective than the separated active ingredients. But if you would like to focus on plant extracts:

- stem cells can be considered more eco friendly due to less water consumption and less fertilizers, but it would be necessary to evaluate the entire production process to assess it. The production of stem cells may require many reactants that are not needed in the production of common extracts. Then you can check if the stem cells have determined reaction mass efficiency,

-  can be more effective than common extracts, but the same can be achieved by using standardized extracts,

- fewer differences in appearance between batches,

- they are often available in the form of a powder (they are more concentrated then), which generally allows to reduce the dosage, but the common powdery extracts also have the same advantage,

- powdered versions have a smaller impact on the color and properties of the product, but a similar effect can be obtained using common powdered extract made with maltodextrin. On the other hand, common extracts with maltodextrin are also very expensive, and usually they are are not standardized.

[grapefruit22]

But what exactly amount of niacin can be considered as “traces”? When niacinamide can be described as a good quality product? I wonder if this has ever been checked given the product’s ph, changes over time, and the amount of niacinamide in the product. Since people experience side effects from topical application, does it mean that their niacinamide was extremely highly contaminated, or maybe even small difference in the amount of niacin can make a difference? It seems more logical to me that if niacinamide contains trace amounts of niacin and causes side effects anyway, it seems safer to use niacinamide with as little niacin content as possible, as apparently even small amounts have an impact.

[grapefruit22]

What is the maximum niacin content you have encountered? I wonder how much niacin in topical application can cause heating sensation. If only traces are present, and those traces are sufficient to cause “heating sensation” in some cases, then maybe reducing them 10 times (or more) could be beneficial?

[grapefruit22]

What are your thoughts on the niacin content? It can vary from 100 to 1000 ppm, depending on “purity” grade. The lower content of niacin is to reduce the feeling of heat after the application (according to manufacturer). In fact, there are users who report such a side effect. This is not a common situation, but it does happen.

[grapefruit22]

If you are generally satisfied with the cream and don’t want to change too much, my only suggestion is to reduce the amount of glycerin. It won’t improve the soaping, but it may reduce the rub-in time a little.

[grapefruit22]

You can use ISO 16128-2:2017 standard https://www.iso.org/standard/65197.html
Manufacturers usually provide a document confirming whether the ingredient meets these standards.

[grapefruit22]

Microformulation said:

Perry said:

@grapefruit22 - any individual’s experience is not necessarily generally applicable to everyone. There is nothing about sulfate formulas that makes them necessarily drying for everyone’s skin.

I agree. Sulfates can be properly formulated to be as mild as just about any other surfactant system. I guess it depends upon the Formulator’s experience.

I can agree that it is possible to create a formulation that will contain SLS and will not be irritating, but I will not agree that SLS is not more irritating compared to other surfactants that can be used for example in a few percent concentration in leave-on formulas without irritation. When preparing the product, I think everyone should take into account users with different levels of sensitivity, especially since it may change over time for everyone (after treatments, sunburns). And it is also worth determining when the formula is not really drying - people with less sensitive skin may not feel dry after a few uses, and they may also not have a good comparison with other products. Then it is worth checking that issue using the apparatus, which is expensive, but it is a better confirmation than self-assessment. You know, I am not saying that if the product is drying for one person, it has to be drying for everyone, but should be thoroughly tested anyway. And then you can decide how many people for whom the product works in any negative way is acceptable (if any).

[grapefruit22]

@helenhelen found out that there is a lower price on skinchakra. Sometimes for larger quantities the price is much lower (e.g. 40 USD/1 kg for 10 kg, 25 USD/1 kg for 20 kg), maybe they would have a better price for a larger quantity? As for Phytofuse range, I would say Phytofuse Rejuvenate is close to Vegeluron (Phytofuse Renew is more watery), but it is still not so good as original product in my opinion.
Anyway, I would try with Sorbitol, or Carrageenan. 2% Vegeluron doesn’t have a big impact on viscosity, so I would focus on the silicone/mucilage slipping.

[grapefruit22]

Misinformation about the concentrations of active ingredients - for example, the product contains 50% hyaluronic acid, 15% vitamin c blend etc. The blend is still not the worst thing, sometimes I see declarations that the product contains 15% of the specific active ingredient, and in INCI that ingredient is listed for example after glycerin, which also raises my doubts.

[grapefruit22]

You may assume they didn’t make that comparison for fear of underperformance, and there is such possibility, but I’m sticking to the point that it’s about money. I know publications where the alleged effectiveness was a statistical error (like X was 0.0001 better), and they were published anyway. As it was a half face study, to compare a sunscreen only they would have to double the number of test subjects, and if you wanted more subjects in general, the cost of the test would be enormous. Even if a company releases a great super hero ingredient, I can assure you, there is no queue of scientists waiting for it to test 100 people for free. What to do in this case? You can search for information whether only the use of sunscreen can reverse melasma, especially melasma that has been developed for many years (such cases were examined in the publication). A very similar study was also done comparing hydroquinone with 4% niacinamide. If you want to test whether the acidic pH of ascorbic acid may be crucial, you can compare the effectiveness of vitamin C derivatives that can be converted into ascorbic acid and be used at a neutral pH. But here again, don’t expect a lot of un-sponsored research in large groups. 

[grapefruit22]

toketsu said:

grapefruit22 said:

You can check the mentioned studies and see if they are convincing.

As I said, I already took a quick look at some of the studies mentioned in the article and all of them are done on animals. It is not cool to throw in huge list of studies and say “the truth is somewhere there”. If you have a convincing one - show it, don’t expect people to go through each of them instead of you.

You mean all the few you selected were about animals? It’s not true that all or even most of them were such kind of study, so it’s not right to write that way, especially if someone just try to help you. Just as it is not true that you got the whole list only, because you also got two specific publications, the second of which is about the comparison with hydroquinone which I found convincing, but you just skip them.

@Perry, check the comparison with hydroquinone. I think it is better study than the first I recommend. 
When I wrote about the price, I did not mean that it must work because it is expensive. My point is, if a product is expensive, people become more picky. At the same time, I also agree that some of them will justify the expense and convince themselves that it works because they paid a lot for it. But here again, as you wrote, people like to change products, and that is how they can compare them and come back to the best. There are cases where the product was released by a recognized company, had great marketing, fancy packaging and a nice smell, and after some time the manufacturer quietly recalled it from the market and replaced it with a new one. I mean mainly products where, of course, the manufacturer provided a high concentration of the active ingredient (10-15%), where in fact it was 3-5%. People had a comparison and noticed the difference. But this is mainly about the active ingredients, when it comes to the moisturizing cream, here I agree that the overall experience and marketing is more important.

[grapefruit22]

For sure brightening (not whitness) effect was not caused by white powder, since this experience applies mainly to vitamin C derivatives, including oil derivative.
You can check the mentioned studies and see if they are convincing. It is true that vitamin C can stain the epidermis orange, which can affect the perception of users.

[grapefruit22]

The second article had 70 references to publications, none of them was convincing?

The huge popularity of vitamin C products is definitely more than marketing given the high prices of these products. And when it comes to photoprotection, it works in a different way to sunscreen, just as it has an anti-aging effect in a different way than an occlusive agent. You don’t have to choose technology you find inferior, but you can use both.

The main question was whether vitamin C evens out the skin tone, if the publications are not convincing, you can read thousands of reviews of consumers who appreciate this effect of Vitamin C. They cannot assess the photoprotection or the anti-wrinkle effect, but for sure they are able to notice improvement of skin tone.

Here you can also find comparison with hydroquinone: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15304189/
Was ascorbic acid less effective? Yes, but hydroquinone had more side effects, and you can’t use it in cosmetics in Europe. Usually ascorbic acid is also used at higher concentrations than in this study, so it is possible that you may achieve better results.

[grapefruit22]

@Abdullah To find out, you can try reducing the amount of SLS, adding a refatting agent, or changing the surfactant.

[grapefruit22]

It probably depends on what you compare them with and in what quantity. Based on my experience, I always see such a correlation that they dry the skin more, both in shampoos and face cleanser.

[grapefruit22]

Mondonna said:

Perry said:

@Paprik - what convinces you that Sodium PCA is superior to glycerine as a humectant?

“The water-binding capacity of the sodium salts of lactic acid and PCA are higher than that of glycerin. Treatment of guinea pig footpad corneum with humectant solutions shows that the water held by corneum decreases in the following order: Sodium PCA>sodium lactate>glycerine>sorbitol”

Ref: Handbook of Cosmetic Science and Technology edited by Barel, Paye, Maibach

This study also confirmed that Sodium Lactate and Sodium PCA are better humectants. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307863658_SKIN_CARE_FORMULATION_INCORPORATING_SODIUM_LACTATES_SODIUM_PCA_AND_LAURYL_PCA_COMPARATIVE_MOISTURISING_EFFICACY_ON_ASIAN_SKIN_SKIN_CARE_FORMULATION_INCORPORATING_SODIUM_LACTATES_SODIUM_PCA_AND_LAURYL_

From what I remember, glycerin has the lowest molecular weight and the moisturizing effect may persist after washing.

[grapefruit22]

Maybe this shampoo is too harsh? Once I started using SLS-free shampoo, I was able to start washing my hair less often.

[grapefruit22]

suswang8 said:

A solubolizer is not required, but can I ask why you’re trying to use it as a concentration of 4pct?

Manufacturer recommends 3-4%, do you think it’s too much?

[grapefruit22]

Yes, it works.
Some research:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/fullarticle/509859
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/health-disease/skin-health/vitamin-C

I can answer also from customer perspective. I use a vitamin c serum every day. If you find a good serum, you should notice the difference right away. The face immediately becomes brighter. Over time, the discoloration becomes lighter, the visibility of the pores is reduced. I do not use products with ascorbic acid. Try any other form of this vitamin - Ascorbyl Glucoside, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate. According to research, they are much more stable, and I use them without any problems.

[grapefruit22]

Hi! I have a background in computer science, but my greatest passion is skincare. That’s why I founded my cosmetic brand, and we are currently working on launching the first product. My goal is to create effective non-irritating products that are safe for people and the environment.