[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Well, I guess it’s an irrelevant point for commercial-scale suppliers. C/C triglycerides sold on the DIY market vary significantly. 

Couldn’t agree more!!!!!!!!!!!
So today…I took all my oils…maybe 14 of them…..made a grid on my arm….and observed absorption rates.  One of the worst….was from my bottle of CCT…..which puzzled me no end!  I had been buying it from all over, so wasn’t sure what was in my bottle….so I opened a new bottle from a reputable seller…and immediately got the result one would expect from CCT.  Lesson learned!!!

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

 Dimethicone, some sort of polymeric emulsifier (Sepinov EMT 10, Aristoflex AVC, Sepigel 305 etc) for stability and improved texture. This is your bulletproof formula of success. Add a good preservation system and you have a minimalistic yet decent product.
 you can add silicone elastomers and more than one polymeric emulsifier for even more fancy feel. 

My greatest weakness as a amateur formulator….I am addicted to label appeal.   Therefore trying to keep the synthetics to a minimum….and the hard to pronounce things…

I sell in Hawaii….where more natural….is a good thing… almost a religion.  

So If I can create a sound emulsion, with the fewest possible ingredients….with some of my other pet peeves…and keep a tidy label….I am happy guy.

I have been doing this just long enough….. that I have already discovered….a beautiful label, and story…. make the product sell.  

I truly appreciate your comments.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Looking at the facts I know about your product 

A: Change emulsifier which changes your emulsion type. A hard decision at a late stage of development.

C: Create a lamellar network which is easy because emulsifier 165 responds well to that. However, cetyl esters alone might not suffice because of the very large hydrophilic groups of 165. You will have to add cetyl alcohol or stearic acid to make it work (it’s just a matter of how much you add),

Questions?

Regarding emulsifier….when it was down to two…. It was Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate, and a Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate type.  I chose the 165, because I thought I could use it across 3 products…. including a mosquito formula with lots of fun and difficult ingredients.
The 165 also whitened the final products better than the Lactylate types, and even seemed to retard oxidation in the mosquito formula?  And I thought that 165 was the easiest to work with, and might be the most forgiving?  And last but not least….the 165 seemed to ‘soap’ less!  (but I never gave the lactylate a shot with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.

So in choosing the 165….I knew the challege would then be in the thickening.  Or should I say…thickening while avoiding soaping and losing sensories, all while trying not to use any silicones.  From the comments of Pharma, ngarayeva001, and ChemicalMatt, sounds like I need to blend my C Esters with C Alcohol.  I will say….I made the formula with exclusively C Esters and again with exclusively C Alcohol, and certainly preferred the final product that was made with the C Esters.  

In trying to achieve the viscosity…I have taken C Esters to 4%…. I think I will try a blend… maybe 2% C esters and 1% C Alcohol.  Or….would you recommend a different ratio?  Did I understand you ….that the fix might be as simple as that?

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.

I tried making my formula with both cetyl esters, and cetyl alcohol, and hated the feel that C Alcohol gave (oily), and loved the feel that C esters gave.  I did seem to tame the beast with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.  I am trying to make the formula ( emulsifier: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) without stearic acid….and even at 4% C Esters….just a tad thin.  If I sub 1% C Alcohol for C Ester….Will it make it a little thicker…and reduce soaping even more…..(I am essentially at zero now.)
I think what I am asking is…. C Alcohol is more effective at thickening than C Esters….right?  (I would prefer to be at a total of 3%…..so would 2% C Ester and 1% C alcohol have at least as much thickening….as 4% C esters?)

[Graillotion]

esthetician922 said:

@chemicalmatt what percentage of rosemary do you typically use?

I use .02%.  Make sure ROE…and not Rosemary Essential oil!

• INCI Rosmarinus officinalis Leaf Extract 
• Recommended Use Level: 0.03% - 0.5%  Or 200- 1000 ppm calculated on oil content
• Appearance: Brown viscous liquid
• Carnosic Acid Content: Typical 5 to 7% (5% minimum)

[Graillotion]

I bought this one:

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/checker-plus-ph-tester-hi98100-plus-hanna-instruments/

After reading some of the comments on this site…and have been happy with it.  There is also a cheaper $29 version of it….on the same site.

[Graillotion]

I do think…..’averaging + antioxidants’….is some kind of thing!  

I use a multi-oil blend (includes meadowfoam)….some of them sensitive… so when they arrive, I mix the blend together with ROE, Vitamin E, and then refrigerate.  Granted my product never gets old as it rotates quickly,  But I am always amazed by how nice my oils are in that format…..Not scientific, just an observation.

This makes production much easier…as I only have to measure one oil product.

Sidebar:  This is something that has surprised me…..I use one oil in particular…that is semi-solid at my room temp…(high elevation Hawaii)…  When included in this blend….and kept in the refrigerator….it is still fluid.  I thought it would separate and solidify!

[Graillotion]

letsalcido said:

@Graillotion Since you’re not too far from the right consistency, you could just up the cetyl esters by 1% and Xanthan by another 0.4%, even a bit more of the Glyceryl (and) PEG-100 Stearate. Just upping any or all of these three should provide more thickness but different skin feels.

To  avoid the lotion feeling slimy due to too much Xanthan Gum, maybe upping cetyl esters and 165 would be the better choice.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I am already using the 165 @ 4%.  (Formula is basically 14% natural oils and 3% butters)  It is my understanding…. 165 does not do much thickening (like other emulsifiers….)  So I will make again today…with Cetyl Esters bumped….another percent.
Hehehe….I am already maxed on humectants….as I am using what I imagine to be a synergistic blend…  

Expecting some feedback from my Arizona testers…today.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Not much time, doggies need to do what doggies do… More tomorrow?

In short: Cupuacu is triglycerides = chemically reacted fatty acids whereas stearic acid is free acid. Both increase melting point but stearic acid tends to form more/better crystals which thicken the oil even better.

Beeswax? Gellant combo instead of pure xanthan? Different emulsifier… meh… maybe don’t change that. Try different shear force, droplet size matters, although… if it’s at the cost of stability… (I like … too, especially when in a hurry )

Thank you for your feedback!

I have been ALL the way around the block with different emulsifiers….and the 165 just seems to fit the bill….in everyway….and can be used in each of my 3 formulas + it makes the whitest product in my situations…with colored oils.

I suspected that the natural stearic…would NOT perform the same way as the purchased.  Thankyou for the scientific answer.

If I can’t get there with an extra percent of cetyl ester….I will explore a small amount of stearic….hehehe….How bad can it be?  But if I can get there without adding another ingredient to the INCI….all the better.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Good question, very good question! 

Sometime I regret the decisions of my youth….like the Business degree (all though it served me well)…instead of the Chemistry degree. As I reflect on life…all the things I learned well….were self taught/learned.  I tell young people….your degree only teaches you how to learn, what you learn is up to you!  All though I fear…schools no longer teach this method of question everything, and ask for proof.  I had some crazy hybrid education…mix of British/American/Korean…hehehe…  Seoul Foreign School.

[Graillotion]

I am using Cetyl esters, and Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba, in the formula already.

The K-20…primarily for it’s occlusive function.

Thankyou for your advice.

[Graillotion]

I realize that ‘averaging’ might sound good on paper….does it work from a scientific perspective? 

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

‘Dissolving’ is this case is a rather colloquial term. 

Thank you for further clarification.  I will formulate the mosquito lotion with C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, adding it to the existing formula…and then go sit in the rainforest (my yard and testing facility).   Because I am using some unique carrier oils… (with repelling qualities)….my product is a touch greasier than I would like…. I am hoping that C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate….might reduce some of that feel.

[Graillotion]

Please list the oils you are using.

Are you getting fresh products from your suppliers?

They might be arriving to you….a the end of their usable life.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Tocopherol and rosemary extract come to mind. Ascorbyl palmitate is not entirely natural but made from ‘naturals’ and would be a great partner for aforementioned phenolic antioxidants.

I know it is NOT an antioxidant….but do things like meadowfoam oil help?  I know the sellers brag…that comingling their product extends the life of more prone oils?  Is this marketing or legit?

[Graillotion]

EVchem said:

Montanov 202 will make a nice white formula (Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside ), if that’s something you can get your hands on. I think smaller emulsion size would also make the cream appear whiter

Tried the 202…. enjoyed the finished product….but 165 has a pronounced whitening effect, much more than the 202.  And I am guessing the 202 has a MUCH higher price…(they did not respond to pricing questions)… so looks like I will work with 165.   165 works in all my formulas, priced right, easy to work with….therefore….  

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

“Myristyl myristate will whiten a product” It’s a lovely thickener but I haven’t noticed such a property.

Tried the MM….did not have a noticeable effect on whitening. 
My conclusion is….the emulsifier has the greatest input…. Other than simply adding whiteners.  And 165 had the strongest influence of all that I tried.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Just a consideration: alkyl benzoate is ‘synthetic’. It can help dissolving all the EOs should your lotion require that benefit.

I am developing two products side by side….a premium lotion where C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate would serve as a sensory addition…. This lotion leans more towards….as natural as possible. The premium lotion does not use EO’s….other than a couple fragrance options. And the second product, a mosquito lotion that uses EO’s.  
Regarding the mosquito lotion…. can you use a term other than….’dissolving’, as I am not sure what that means (in relation to essential oils)?  I am shooting for a two hour effective range…which I believe I have already achieved with vanillin and triethyl citrate.  So would ‘dissolving’….shorten or lengthen my 2 hours?  The mosquito lotion…is much more liberal with the ingredient list…..efficacy first!  (If it is ‘dissolving’….. is that happening while the bottle is sitting on the store shelf?)

Regarding the premium….natural first…hehhee…. C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate…sound much worse on a label…than Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiable….in my opinion….but only by a little bit!  

Thank you for your input.  Look forward to your answers!

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your comment, and yes I was incorrect in lumping glycerin in with the others!

I will try that one.

[Graillotion]

caligirl said:

I’ve removed up to 3% water from my formula, and replaced with up to 3% dimethicone (test) and it works beautifully in reducing the amount of soaping on some lotions that produce the soaping effect.  I’ve also subbed the dimethicone for Daikon Seed and got the same results.  

I have decided to go the route of no dimethicone….  After making about 5 batches this week…I have determined it is very sensitive to which emulsifier I use.  I have also added… Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and that helped….. a lot.  

The 165 emulsifier….and not using stearic to thicken…seems to have done the trick.

I already had daikon seed extract in the formula….but only at 1%.  

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

I am also using Hydrolyzed jojoba esters in another formula…and have heard it has some fragrance fixing properties….any thoughts on this?

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

Use triethyl citrate, best fragrance oil fixative around.

What do you think of C12-15 alkyl benzoate, as a fixative?  Certainly wouldn’t hurt the lotion to add it, just didn’t know if it brings anything to the table…..as far as fixatives go?

[Graillotion]

Thank you all…the 350 is cheapest, and available from multiple suppliers that I regularly use.

[Graillotion]

ozgirl said:

Functional ingredients  – such as an
antioxidant, preservative, diluent, solvent or color.

Sodium thiosulfate is listed as being used in fragrances as a functional ingredient so if it is added to your fragrance to stop oxidation you can probably get away with listing the combination (fragrance + sodium thiosulfate) as “fragrance”.

Ahh…I’m sure that is it….an antioxidant for the fragrance.
I knew the practice was widespread.
I like that!  

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Here around it’s not a fragrance and I don’t think it is in the US either…

Yea, sulfite ain’t that loved on ingredient lists ;( .

Of course I know it is not a ‘fragrance’…. but the vendors are using some ‘loophole’ to market it as fragrance, so they can sell a cheap ingredient for a high price.  I was just curious as to what that loophole was!