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ngarayeva001 said:

Yes, there’s an emulsifier that is used in huge numbers of high end product. It’s Arlacel 165 (GMS/PEG 100 stearate). It’s loved by the industry  for versatility and reliability. 

Yes, I have 165 and in fact have selected it for the other project that I am developing simultaneously, a very difficult to emulsify mosquito lotion.  
In the beginning, I had hoped that I could end up….with a one size fits all emulsifier, and after chasing all the ‘fancy’ emulsifiers around….might just end up with 165 as my all around.
Interesting note…. My mosquito lotion has lots of Vanillin in it…which causes terrific oxidation/browning.  165 is the only emulsifier that almost single handedly kept the browning at bay.  I also found that the vanillin would recrystallize in about 80% of the emulsifiers I tried, giving the feel of a little grit or sand in the product (totally unacceptable).

Thank you for confirming that thought.  I have some products arriving from Floratech tomorrow, and I am hoping they will put my premium lotion….over the top.  Right now it is good….just not blow your mind….amazing!

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Pharma said:

One last question….the re-packers that are selling Browning reducers (metabisulfite) and listing it as…. ‘Fragrance’.  (INCL)

Can I do this also?  And the reason I ask…is two fold… I doubt I will ever come across a customer that says….Wow…finally found a lotion with metabisulfite in it!!!!

and

I am looking to minimize ingredient list….and since I will already be using ‘fragrance’….it kills two birds with one stone.

I am sure they (the re-packers) are using ‘fragrance’….so people like me don’t discover how easy and cheap that ingredient is to work with.

Thank You 

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Pharma said:

BTW if you were to use a dark airless dispenser, a pinch of ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate should also do the trick because you worst enemy or the real problem is oxygen and sunlight (UV). A pH above 6 simply speeds up the reaction and amines are probably not present in your product.

Thank you.  I always use colored PET bottles…except when I am testing…then I use clear…and leave them in a warm sunny window…to aggravate the situation, and so I can observe.  I have discussed pumps vs flip tops…and will use pumps on this formula…I know…not the same as airless….but I think better than flip tops…   No Amines.

Thanx again for your insightful comments.

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Dr Catherine Pratt said:

I would use Euxyl 9010- Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin combined. It is from Shulke, works well at 1% and not too expensive. Good luck!

How would you compare 9010 with 703?  When I asked customer service at my supplier….they recommended 703….for my lotion format….mentioned pH?

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Pharma said:

The proposed compounds are all very similar regarding chemistry and pros and cons. Sodium metabisulfite is the most commonly used one for cosmetics and builds sodium hydrogen sulfite in solution. Sodium thiosulfate is also used as pharmaceutical drugs but its reactions may result in the formation of sulfur which could be undesirable (not dangerous, just annoying).

I’d use metabisulfite.

Thank You….that is exactly the type of information I am looking for.
Any chance you could tell me inclusion rate?
Note: I have tons of Vanillin in the formula….3%…..and it smells….GOOD!  Never gotten so many complements in my life….on my ‘cologne’….(also has 13 EO’s in the formula)… So a herbal vanilla scent.

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I have read tons of articles….regarding glycerin, and as a result my first product (lotion) did not include it (and it was not missed).  As I am working on the next two releases…I found this study VERY interesting….just looking at glycerin, which was not the topic of the study.  I like studies like this….where the (glycerin) candidate is just a participant…and not being promoted…or discriminated against….Therefore you can probably accept the result without bias.

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS15-071.pdf

It appears as though…..draw your own conclusion…  

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Here is a nice working formula:
Even has the instructions….from a great company.
70%

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/Formulary/CleansersToners/C028.pdf

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helenhelen  I’ve had success with Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate and Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, but it gets a bit too siliconey and greasy at too high a percentage.

Where is the sweet spot on this product….have some on the way…. What is too high?  

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Pharma 

Thank you.

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Pharma said:

Olivate (if not hydrated) is rich in mono-unsaturated fatty acids and contains about the same cocktail of fatty acids as olive oil whereas palmitate is commonly derived from purified palmitic acid. As a rule of thumbs, unsaturated fatty acids such as oleic acid (the major constituent of olive oil) but also all their derivatives have a lower boiling point than corresponding saturated fatty acid derivatives. Hence, they feel more liquid, spread better, have more ‘slip’, tend to be drying, and reduce formation of solid crystal networks. In case of ethylhexyl esters, the effect is less pronounced than comparing for example olive fatty acids with palmitic acid, Tween 80 with Tween 40, or glyceryl olivate with glyceryl palmitate because the ethylhexanol moiety shows a similar effect than unsaturated fatty acids and therefore, the difference between the two compounds is more or less just half as much.

Sorry…should have been more clear….Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables vs Ethylhexyl palmitate

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alan123 said:

 this silicone free battle is quite absurd. There is no logical reason behind trying to achieve this claim.

So if you were to choose a silicone to accomplish the less greasy thing….what would be your pick?  I have only cyclomethicone on hand.

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alan123 said:

you can try Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate or 

Isoamyl Laurate

Are you saying…. IPM will not help reduce a greasy feeling?

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Pharma said:

Arrowroot is very rich in starch and therefore considered as starch .

Yes, thank you… I guess I was asking….at what rate should it be included, to achieve a noticeable difference?…. And maybe….at what rate….is too much?  …. meaning you can start to detect its presence in a negative way.

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EVchem said:

 adding starch, 
 

What would be the typical range….of a starch?  I am using Arrowroot powder….and at less than 1%.

Any thoughts on IPM as a greasy reducer?

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What about IPM?  All the sites selling it….promote it as reducing the greasy feeling?

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GabyD said:

So can I just mix it with some water and keep it in the fridge?

Yes…however, note I said with preservative (Optiphen or others).

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I make a 1% solution and just keep a bunch on hand….and add as needed to formulas.  It usually takes a few hours to hydrate properly.  Since I am storing it (in the fridge)… I also add Optiphen to that solution.  When it is time to make a recipe…I use the 1% solution in lieu of some of the water…depending on the formula.  My HA….always looks awesome…12 hours after making it.  Right after making it….not so much.   

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SAMOrganics 

I like watery feelings after application   but during application the water is released at once and that causes a feeling like the oil is slipping on a water film; once the water has evaporated, there is a stopping feeling like rubbing the fingers over a rubber ball. I don´t know how to describe it better  

Did you get the same sensation…when you tried the Emulsense?  Since that is the only sample product I have on hand… I wanted to see if I could experience what you were describing. 

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SAMOrganics said:

BUT: I don´t like the haptics, because the emulsion breaks too quickly, releases lots of water, and then it “slides” over the skin on a water film. I tried many formulations

You are saying….when applied to the skin, it feels as though the emulsion is breaking?  You are not saying….the emulsion is causing a problem…while still in the bottle?  I had not noticed that with the Emulsense sample I had created….a watery feeling after application (If I understand what you are saying.)

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Pharma said:

Which emulsifier does require gluconate and why?

AminoSensyl™ SC from Inolex….. they just say…it is a formula stabilizer.  (It is cationic…if that factors in?)

Here is direct quote from their instructions: It is recommended to neutralize AminoSensyl™ SC with calcium gluconate or sodium gluconate.
Strong bases are not recommended for pH adjustment (e.g. sodium hydroxide).
• AminoSensyl™ SC performance is optimal at pH < 5.0
• The recommended ratio of AminoSensyl™ SC to calcium gluconate is 7:1. Specific levels of calcium gluconate
required will be formulation dependent.
The brassicyl valinate esylate provides a cationic charge at pH < 5.0
• AminoSensyl™ SC, like most cationic ingredients, is generally not compatible with anionic components
such as anionic emulsifiers, co-emulsifiers, polymers, etc.
• AminoSensyl™ SC is HLB independent. Additional emulsifiers are typically not required to form a stable emulsion.

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Pharma said:

EDTA is one of the strongest chelates which can be used for many different applications/industries over a broad pH range. Depending on what you want to do, it may be better or worse than alternative chelates such as gluconate.

Gluconate has one major drawback in cosmetics: with many metals it only forms stable complexes at high pH. It can also quite easily be broken down metabolically by all microbes -> a formulation which starts failing fill probably fail hard.

So what I hear you saying is:  If I am using a formula that requests gluconate for the emulsifier…. I should still keep the EDTA in the formula?  

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Bill_Toge said:

if you can get hold of Evonik Goldschmidt materials, try Tego Care PBS 6 (polyglyceryl-6 stearate / polyglyceryl-6 behenate) - it’s a remarkably robust and reliable PEG-free emulsifier, it even works with high concentrations of acids, salts or urea

Got the PBS 6….worked well in one lotion, but failed in the more difficult mosquito lotion.  So far….e-wax and 165 are the only two that can hold that puppy together.  

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Pharma said:

It’s by far not as effective as EDTA especially at pH towards the more acidic side.

Are you saying…something like Sodium Gluconate is not as effective as a chelator as the EDTA’s?

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Thank you, Pharma.

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Pharma said:

Really natural is phytic acid and there’s a bunch of strong chelates which are derived from amino acids and, though synthesised to some extent, are fully and readily biodegradable.

Just off the cuff….can you name some of those natural chelates….that I might be able to find from suppliers?

Thank you all for your input.