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Dr Catherine Pratt said:

I would use Euxyl 9010- Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin combined. It is from Shulke, works well at 1% and not too expensive. Good luck!

How would you compare 9010 with 703?  When I asked customer service at my supplier….they recommended 703….for my lotion format….mentioned pH?

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Pharma said:

The proposed compounds are all very similar regarding chemistry and pros and cons. Sodium metabisulfite is the most commonly used one for cosmetics and builds sodium hydrogen sulfite in solution. Sodium thiosulfate is also used as pharmaceutical drugs but its reactions may result in the formation of sulfur which could be undesirable (not dangerous, just annoying).

I’d use metabisulfite.

Thank You….that is exactly the type of information I am looking for.
Any chance you could tell me inclusion rate?
Note: I have tons of Vanillin in the formula….3%…..and it smells….GOOD!  Never gotten so many complements in my life….on my ‘cologne’….(also has 13 EO’s in the formula)… So a herbal vanilla scent.

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I have read tons of articles….regarding glycerin, and as a result my first product (lotion) did not include it (and it was not missed).  As I am working on the next two releases…I found this study VERY interesting….just looking at glycerin, which was not the topic of the study.  I like studies like this….where the (glycerin) candidate is just a participant…and not being promoted…or discriminated against….Therefore you can probably accept the result without bias.

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS15-071.pdf

It appears as though…..draw your own conclusion…  

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Here is a nice working formula:
Even has the instructions….from a great company.
70%

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/Formulary/CleansersToners/C028.pdf

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helenhelen  I’ve had success with Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate and Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, but it gets a bit too siliconey and greasy at too high a percentage.

Where is the sweet spot on this product….have some on the way…. What is too high?  

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Pharma 

Thank you.

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Pharma said:

Olivate (if not hydrated) is rich in mono-unsaturated fatty acids and contains about the same cocktail of fatty acids as olive oil whereas palmitate is commonly derived from purified palmitic acid. As a rule of thumbs, unsaturated fatty acids such as oleic acid (the major constituent of olive oil) but also all their derivatives have a lower boiling point than corresponding saturated fatty acid derivatives. Hence, they feel more liquid, spread better, have more ‘slip’, tend to be drying, and reduce formation of solid crystal networks. In case of ethylhexyl esters, the effect is less pronounced than comparing for example olive fatty acids with palmitic acid, Tween 80 with Tween 40, or glyceryl olivate with glyceryl palmitate because the ethylhexanol moiety shows a similar effect than unsaturated fatty acids and therefore, the difference between the two compounds is more or less just half as much.

Sorry…should have been more clear….Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables vs Ethylhexyl palmitate

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alan123 said:

 this silicone free battle is quite absurd. There is no logical reason behind trying to achieve this claim.

So if you were to choose a silicone to accomplish the less greasy thing….what would be your pick?  I have only cyclomethicone on hand.

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alan123 said:

you can try Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate or 

Isoamyl Laurate

Are you saying…. IPM will not help reduce a greasy feeling?

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Pharma said:

Arrowroot is very rich in starch and therefore considered as starch .

Yes, thank you… I guess I was asking….at what rate should it be included, to achieve a noticeable difference?…. And maybe….at what rate….is too much?  …. meaning you can start to detect its presence in a negative way.

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EVchem said:

 adding starch, 
 

What would be the typical range….of a starch?  I am using Arrowroot powder….and at less than 1%.

Any thoughts on IPM as a greasy reducer?

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What about IPM?  All the sites selling it….promote it as reducing the greasy feeling?

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GabyD said:

So can I just mix it with some water and keep it in the fridge?

Yes…however, note I said with preservative (Optiphen or others).

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I make a 1% solution and just keep a bunch on hand….and add as needed to formulas.  It usually takes a few hours to hydrate properly.  Since I am storing it (in the fridge)… I also add Optiphen to that solution.  When it is time to make a recipe…I use the 1% solution in lieu of some of the water…depending on the formula.  My HA….always looks awesome…12 hours after making it.  Right after making it….not so much.   

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SAMOrganics 

I like watery feelings after application   but during application the water is released at once and that causes a feeling like the oil is slipping on a water film; once the water has evaporated, there is a stopping feeling like rubbing the fingers over a rubber ball. I don´t know how to describe it better  

Did you get the same sensation…when you tried the Emulsense?  Since that is the only sample product I have on hand… I wanted to see if I could experience what you were describing. 

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SAMOrganics said:

BUT: I don´t like the haptics, because the emulsion breaks too quickly, releases lots of water, and then it “slides” over the skin on a water film. I tried many formulations

You are saying….when applied to the skin, it feels as though the emulsion is breaking?  You are not saying….the emulsion is causing a problem…while still in the bottle?  I had not noticed that with the Emulsense sample I had created….a watery feeling after application (If I understand what you are saying.)

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Pharma said:

Which emulsifier does require gluconate and why?

AminoSensyl™ SC from Inolex….. they just say…it is a formula stabilizer.  (It is cationic…if that factors in?)

Here is direct quote from their instructions: It is recommended to neutralize AminoSensyl™ SC with calcium gluconate or sodium gluconate.
Strong bases are not recommended for pH adjustment (e.g. sodium hydroxide).
• AminoSensyl™ SC performance is optimal at pH < 5.0
• The recommended ratio of AminoSensyl™ SC to calcium gluconate is 7:1. Specific levels of calcium gluconate
required will be formulation dependent.
The brassicyl valinate esylate provides a cationic charge at pH < 5.0
• AminoSensyl™ SC, like most cationic ingredients, is generally not compatible with anionic components
such as anionic emulsifiers, co-emulsifiers, polymers, etc.
• AminoSensyl™ SC is HLB independent. Additional emulsifiers are typically not required to form a stable emulsion.

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Pharma said:

EDTA is one of the strongest chelates which can be used for many different applications/industries over a broad pH range. Depending on what you want to do, it may be better or worse than alternative chelates such as gluconate.

Gluconate has one major drawback in cosmetics: with many metals it only forms stable complexes at high pH. It can also quite easily be broken down metabolically by all microbes -> a formulation which starts failing fill probably fail hard.

So what I hear you saying is:  If I am using a formula that requests gluconate for the emulsifier…. I should still keep the EDTA in the formula?  

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Bill_Toge said:

if you can get hold of Evonik Goldschmidt materials, try Tego Care PBS 6 (polyglyceryl-6 stearate / polyglyceryl-6 behenate) - it’s a remarkably robust and reliable PEG-free emulsifier, it even works with high concentrations of acids, salts or urea

Got the PBS 6….worked well in one lotion, but failed in the more difficult mosquito lotion.  So far….e-wax and 165 are the only two that can hold that puppy together.  

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Pharma said:

It’s by far not as effective as EDTA especially at pH towards the more acidic side.

Are you saying…something like Sodium Gluconate is not as effective as a chelator as the EDTA’s?

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Thank you, Pharma.

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Pharma said:

Really natural is phytic acid and there’s a bunch of strong chelates which are derived from amino acids and, though synthesised to some extent, are fully and readily biodegradable.

Just off the cuff….can you name some of those natural chelates….that I might be able to find from suppliers?

Thank you all for your input.

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I have noticed many of the bottles are sold out, where I purchase my packaging.  Needless to say….TP as well   I think the bottles I buy…can double as handsoap/sanitizer bottles.
(United States)

….They need to take the Alcohol out of our gasoline…and make it available to the world!!!

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EVchem said:

I don’t think emulsifiers/ fatty alcohols will be able to impact greasiness as effectively as adding starch, clay, or some other filler. 

Thank you…. I do use some Arrowroot powder….apparently not enough (.7%).

Where I got the idea about the emulsifier….as I am working on another lotion…. the emulsifiers I have experimented with….seem to have a drastic effect on the oiliness or dry feel….after the first 10-15 min.  165 leaves a dry feeling skin….very shortly after use…whereas the Botaneco Hydresia…. leaves a very smooth and silky feel, that feels like the some of the oil is still on the surface.  (Not a negative oily)

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Pharma said:

 For your climate, behenyl alcohol might be more suitable due to its higher melting point???

Just a question from a novice….. I noticed that behenyl alcohol involves some long chain fatties…. The formula already includes 1% Jojoba and 1% Meadowfoam… Is there a chance I would be getting too much long chains, and hence causeing a problem of some kind…..albeit formulation or skin feel?