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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=4%25+Hyaluronic+acid+solution&docid=608019248263595434&mid=486B8DEFF57BD0B89BDD486B8DEFF57BD0B89BDD&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

I guess it is possible to get 4% into solution.  
I learn something new everyday!

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On your sodium HA….did you mean you would choose one of those….or you planned on using 4%?
I don’t think you can get 4% into solution? (or you meant .4%?)
At 1%…you already have a nice thick product.

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I am not so naïve as to think….all slippery ingredients will have the same effect on soaping.  That is why I seek the mechanical means in which dimethicone reduces soaping.   …. Ultimately I would like to duplicate those mechanics…in a natural format….if it can be done.

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As you get a little bigger….you can buy directly from the mfg.  I am buying some components from FloraTech, directly.  Their min purchase on many ingredients is 15-17 Kg.

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For small timer: (like me)
LotionCrafter  (top choice)
http://www.makeyourown.buzz/
brambleberry
Ingredients to die for
New directions (Canada)

Lots of fake ingredients…on ebay and Amazon…best to stay away from those.  The above listed…have a good reputation.

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I always add, after making the emulsion, and during cooldown….below 120F.

Any reason you are adding it so early?

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My motto in life has always been….Learn something new everyday.  Hehheehe…. Pharma, I think I have my quota for the week.

I forgot to mention….emulsifier 165….actually creates a very white version of the lotion!  I just don’t care that much for the sensory package that come along with 165.  However, I have resigned myself to working on the sensory aspect through a vehicle other than the emulsifier.  I am gonna give MONTANOV 202 a shot before I wrap this up…..supposed to give the sensory + great whitening.  We’ll see!   Got a box coming from Floratech today….and hoping me sensory package will be upgraded.

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EVchem said:

Montanov 202 will make a nice white formula (Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside ), if that’s something you can get your hands on. I think smaller emulsion size would also make the cream appear whiter

I will request a sample from ULP.
Thank you for the tip.

I did not understand….the concept of smaller emulsion size…would make a cream appear whiter?

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ngarayeva001 said:

 I started noticing that I love old materials. Arlacel 165, Polysorbates (you can do soo much with them), 

In my former life, I used to say, the only reason a product gets ‘old’ is because it has done a good job for a long time!
Per another suggestion on a related question…. I think I will give one more product a try…. Montanov 202.

I like the thin emulsion that 165 creates…gives me total control on what I use as thickener, and how thick I make it…. Hehehe….lets me choose between flip tops and pumps!  

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ngarayeva001 said:

Yes, there’s an emulsifier that is used in huge numbers of high end product. It’s Arlacel 165 (GMS/PEG 100 stearate). It’s loved by the industry  for versatility and reliability. 

Yes, I have 165 and in fact have selected it for the other project that I am developing simultaneously, a very difficult to emulsify mosquito lotion.  
In the beginning, I had hoped that I could end up….with a one size fits all emulsifier, and after chasing all the ‘fancy’ emulsifiers around….might just end up with 165 as my all around.
Interesting note…. My mosquito lotion has lots of Vanillin in it…which causes terrific oxidation/browning.  165 is the only emulsifier that almost single handedly kept the browning at bay.  I also found that the vanillin would recrystallize in about 80% of the emulsifiers I tried, giving the feel of a little grit or sand in the product (totally unacceptable).

Thank you for confirming that thought.  I have some products arriving from Floratech tomorrow, and I am hoping they will put my premium lotion….over the top.  Right now it is good….just not blow your mind….amazing!

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Pharma said:

One last question….the re-packers that are selling Browning reducers (metabisulfite) and listing it as…. ‘Fragrance’.  (INCL)

Can I do this also?  And the reason I ask…is two fold… I doubt I will ever come across a customer that says….Wow…finally found a lotion with metabisulfite in it!!!!

and

I am looking to minimize ingredient list….and since I will already be using ‘fragrance’….it kills two birds with one stone.

I am sure they (the re-packers) are using ‘fragrance’….so people like me don’t discover how easy and cheap that ingredient is to work with.

Thank You 

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Pharma said:

BTW if you were to use a dark airless dispenser, a pinch of ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate should also do the trick because you worst enemy or the real problem is oxygen and sunlight (UV). A pH above 6 simply speeds up the reaction and amines are probably not present in your product.

Thank you.  I always use colored PET bottles…except when I am testing…then I use clear…and leave them in a warm sunny window…to aggravate the situation, and so I can observe.  I have discussed pumps vs flip tops…and will use pumps on this formula…I know…not the same as airless….but I think better than flip tops…   No Amines.

Thanx again for your insightful comments.

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Dr Catherine Pratt said:

I would use Euxyl 9010- Phenoxyethanol & Ethylhexylglycerin combined. It is from Shulke, works well at 1% and not too expensive. Good luck!

How would you compare 9010 with 703?  When I asked customer service at my supplier….they recommended 703….for my lotion format….mentioned pH?

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Pharma said:

The proposed compounds are all very similar regarding chemistry and pros and cons. Sodium metabisulfite is the most commonly used one for cosmetics and builds sodium hydrogen sulfite in solution. Sodium thiosulfate is also used as pharmaceutical drugs but its reactions may result in the formation of sulfur which could be undesirable (not dangerous, just annoying).

I’d use metabisulfite.

Thank You….that is exactly the type of information I am looking for.
Any chance you could tell me inclusion rate?
Note: I have tons of Vanillin in the formula….3%…..and it smells….GOOD!  Never gotten so many complements in my life….on my ‘cologne’….(also has 13 EO’s in the formula)… So a herbal vanilla scent.

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I have read tons of articles….regarding glycerin, and as a result my first product (lotion) did not include it (and it was not missed).  As I am working on the next two releases…I found this study VERY interesting….just looking at glycerin, which was not the topic of the study.  I like studies like this….where the (glycerin) candidate is just a participant…and not being promoted…or discriminated against….Therefore you can probably accept the result without bias.

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/ClaimSheets/CS15-071.pdf

It appears as though…..draw your own conclusion…  

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Here is a nice working formula:
Even has the instructions….from a great company.
70%

https://www.floratech.com/PDFs/Formulary/CleansersToners/C028.pdf

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helenhelen  I’ve had success with Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate and Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, but it gets a bit too siliconey and greasy at too high a percentage.

Where is the sweet spot on this product….have some on the way…. What is too high?  

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Pharma 

Thank you.

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Pharma said:

Olivate (if not hydrated) is rich in mono-unsaturated fatty acids and contains about the same cocktail of fatty acids as olive oil whereas palmitate is commonly derived from purified palmitic acid. As a rule of thumbs, unsaturated fatty acids such as oleic acid (the major constituent of olive oil) but also all their derivatives have a lower boiling point than corresponding saturated fatty acid derivatives. Hence, they feel more liquid, spread better, have more ‘slip’, tend to be drying, and reduce formation of solid crystal networks. In case of ethylhexyl esters, the effect is less pronounced than comparing for example olive fatty acids with palmitic acid, Tween 80 with Tween 40, or glyceryl olivate with glyceryl palmitate because the ethylhexanol moiety shows a similar effect than unsaturated fatty acids and therefore, the difference between the two compounds is more or less just half as much.

Sorry…should have been more clear….Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables vs Ethylhexyl palmitate

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alan123 said:

 this silicone free battle is quite absurd. There is no logical reason behind trying to achieve this claim.

So if you were to choose a silicone to accomplish the less greasy thing….what would be your pick?  I have only cyclomethicone on hand.

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alan123 said:

you can try Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate or 

Isoamyl Laurate

Are you saying…. IPM will not help reduce a greasy feeling?

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Pharma said:

Arrowroot is very rich in starch and therefore considered as starch .

Yes, thank you… I guess I was asking….at what rate should it be included, to achieve a noticeable difference?…. And maybe….at what rate….is too much?  …. meaning you can start to detect its presence in a negative way.

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EVchem said:

 adding starch, 
 

What would be the typical range….of a starch?  I am using Arrowroot powder….and at less than 1%.

Any thoughts on IPM as a greasy reducer?

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What about IPM?  All the sites selling it….promote it as reducing the greasy feeling?

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GabyD said:

So can I just mix it with some water and keep it in the fridge?

Yes…however, note I said with preservative (Optiphen or others).