[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Arrowroot is very rich in starch and therefore considered as starch .

Yes, thank you… I guess I was asking….at what rate should it be included, to achieve a noticeable difference?…. And maybe….at what rate….is too much?  …. meaning you can start to detect its presence in a negative way.

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EVchem said:

 adding starch, 
 

What would be the typical range….of a starch?  I am using Arrowroot powder….and at less than 1%.

Any thoughts on IPM as a greasy reducer?

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What about IPM?  All the sites selling it….promote it as reducing the greasy feeling?

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GabyD said:

So can I just mix it with some water and keep it in the fridge?

Yes…however, note I said with preservative (Optiphen or others).

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I make a 1% solution and just keep a bunch on hand….and add as needed to formulas.  It usually takes a few hours to hydrate properly.  Since I am storing it (in the fridge)… I also add Optiphen to that solution.  When it is time to make a recipe…I use the 1% solution in lieu of some of the water…depending on the formula.  My HA….always looks awesome…12 hours after making it.  Right after making it….not so much.   

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SAMOrganics 

I like watery feelings after application   but during application the water is released at once and that causes a feeling like the oil is slipping on a water film; once the water has evaporated, there is a stopping feeling like rubbing the fingers over a rubber ball. I don´t know how to describe it better  

Did you get the same sensation…when you tried the Emulsense?  Since that is the only sample product I have on hand… I wanted to see if I could experience what you were describing. 

[Graillotion]

SAMOrganics said:

BUT: I don´t like the haptics, because the emulsion breaks too quickly, releases lots of water, and then it “slides” over the skin on a water film. I tried many formulations

You are saying….when applied to the skin, it feels as though the emulsion is breaking?  You are not saying….the emulsion is causing a problem…while still in the bottle?  I had not noticed that with the Emulsense sample I had created….a watery feeling after application (If I understand what you are saying.)

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Which emulsifier does require gluconate and why?

AminoSensyl™ SC from Inolex….. they just say…it is a formula stabilizer.  (It is cationic…if that factors in?)

Here is direct quote from their instructions: It is recommended to neutralize AminoSensyl™ SC with calcium gluconate or sodium gluconate.
Strong bases are not recommended for pH adjustment (e.g. sodium hydroxide).
• AminoSensyl™ SC performance is optimal at pH < 5.0
• The recommended ratio of AminoSensyl™ SC to calcium gluconate is 7:1. Specific levels of calcium gluconate
required will be formulation dependent.
The brassicyl valinate esylate provides a cationic charge at pH < 5.0
• AminoSensyl™ SC, like most cationic ingredients, is generally not compatible with anionic components
such as anionic emulsifiers, co-emulsifiers, polymers, etc.
• AminoSensyl™ SC is HLB independent. Additional emulsifiers are typically not required to form a stable emulsion.

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Pharma said:

EDTA is one of the strongest chelates which can be used for many different applications/industries over a broad pH range. Depending on what you want to do, it may be better or worse than alternative chelates such as gluconate.

Gluconate has one major drawback in cosmetics: with many metals it only forms stable complexes at high pH. It can also quite easily be broken down metabolically by all microbes -> a formulation which starts failing fill probably fail hard.

So what I hear you saying is:  If I am using a formula that requests gluconate for the emulsifier…. I should still keep the EDTA in the formula?  

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Bill_Toge said:

if you can get hold of Evonik Goldschmidt materials, try Tego Care PBS 6 (polyglyceryl-6 stearate / polyglyceryl-6 behenate) - it’s a remarkably robust and reliable PEG-free emulsifier, it even works with high concentrations of acids, salts or urea

Got the PBS 6….worked well in one lotion, but failed in the more difficult mosquito lotion.  So far….e-wax and 165 are the only two that can hold that puppy together.  

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Pharma said:

It’s by far not as effective as EDTA especially at pH towards the more acidic side.

Are you saying…something like Sodium Gluconate is not as effective as a chelator as the EDTA’s?

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Thank you, Pharma.

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Pharma said:

Really natural is phytic acid and there’s a bunch of strong chelates which are derived from amino acids and, though synthesised to some extent, are fully and readily biodegradable.

Just off the cuff….can you name some of those natural chelates….that I might be able to find from suppliers?

Thank you all for your input.

[Graillotion]

I have noticed many of the bottles are sold out, where I purchase my packaging.  Needless to say….TP as well   I think the bottles I buy…can double as handsoap/sanitizer bottles.
(United States)

….They need to take the Alcohol out of our gasoline…and make it available to the world!!!

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EVchem said:

I don’t think emulsifiers/ fatty alcohols will be able to impact greasiness as effectively as adding starch, clay, or some other filler. 

Thank you…. I do use some Arrowroot powder….apparently not enough (.7%).

Where I got the idea about the emulsifier….as I am working on another lotion…. the emulsifiers I have experimented with….seem to have a drastic effect on the oiliness or dry feel….after the first 10-15 min.  165 leaves a dry feeling skin….very shortly after use…whereas the Botaneco Hydresia…. leaves a very smooth and silky feel, that feels like the some of the oil is still on the surface.  (Not a negative oily)

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

 For your climate, behenyl alcohol might be more suitable due to its higher melting point???

Just a question from a novice….. I noticed that behenyl alcohol involves some long chain fatties…. The formula already includes 1% Jojoba and 1% Meadowfoam… Is there a chance I would be getting too much long chains, and hence causeing a problem of some kind…..albeit formulation or skin feel?

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natzam44 

If cetyl alcohol is cheaper or more widely available in your region, then you may want to just go with that. 

 I was leaning towards cetyl…and haven’t read much to dissuade me, so will probably go that way.  I’ll get the ester version as well…and compare them in formula.  Hehehe…in Hawaii….none of the products are available….just whatever can be sent from the mainland.  I’ll look again at behenyl alcohol, as melting point is a concern.

[Graillotion]

Thank you all, for your comments… I guess I will just try and master the fine points of adding Carbomer correctly!  Jennycat, I do use .2% Xgum in all my emulsions.

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helenhelen 

Is cetyl palmitate problematic in terms of increasing a draggy effect and whitening/soaping on rub-in?

Thanks so much, and sorry @Graillotion for hijacking this thread! 

No worries…I am here to learn….and look forward to seeing the answers to your Q’s….as I had similar ones.

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While we are at it….lets include: Cetyl Esters in the conversation.

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chemicalmatt said:

Use 1.0% TEC in the total formula.

Thank You!  You have been wonderfully helpful!

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chemicalmatt said:

Use in proportion to your fragrance and/or essentials. I think 1.00% sounds about right - 

Still a little confused…. I included 1% TEC based on all ingredients.  My Essential oils are 3% of all ingredients.  So you are agreeing with TEC at a rate of 1% of total?….. or 1% of the 3% EO’s???  Please clarify.  Thank You.

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I made a sample last night with 1% TEC, and with an unscientific sniff test on my arm an hour after application…. I could still smell the EO’s quite well, where as previous batches, I mainly smelled just Vanillin after an hour!  

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Bill_Toge, thank you….hehehe…believe it or not….I have requested some of that on UL two days ago.  Sometimes they send….sometimes no….hehehe…I have a gmail address….so that really throws up red flags.

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Pharma, hehehe…fun read.
ROE : Rosemary Oil Extract
Vanillin, though a white crystal, causes other ingredients to brown….often in as little as two days.  And yes, I am using it as a fixative…. Been shown to reduce volatility much better than P-20.  (And yes, I like the scent it brings… perfect blender with my EO group.)
The carrier oils I listed…have been used for a thousand years in the Amazon and Africa as natural bug defense.  Many doctoral papers have been written on them…which I have (for better or worse) read.
I have looked at Picaridin and IR3535, and might as well include Oil of Lemon Eucalyptus (PMD)….and they don’t fit my model.  I would have loved to have added PMD…but it not available at my level/budget.

I do not plan on making repelling claims…for all the reasons you are aware of… but I have huge demand already, and the product is not finalized…still having emulsion issues.  My vendors are begging for it…hehehe….maybe they have received some preliminary samples….hehehe.  (It smells really good!) … People are always stopping me, asking what my cologne is.

I live in Hawaii, and have a yard with just under 1000 types of plants, so I spend a lot of time outside.  I am a mosquito magnet, and we have them 365.  So I created this lotion out of personal necessity.  I had tried sooooo many bad ones over the years (non-deet)…. That I came to the conclusion….if you want it done right….do it yourself.  The only (natural) one over the years that actually worked…was heavy on Vanillin….and the research I did…concurred.  I do get a good belly laugh…when I see all these bloggers….tell people the can use Vanilla…in lieu of Vanillin….hehehe… I think Vanilla actually attracts them!

One of the carrier oils listed….directly translates…Bitter oil.  When I wear this lotion….I will sit in the rainforest for an hour…. and watch the mosquitos behavior…. No landings….and they give up their inspection of me…within 3-5 seconds….keeping in mind….without it….I am their favorite.   Without it….they will follow me around for 30 seconds plus, even with swatting.

So yes….many have failed on this path, but I have made some great steps forward. probably 300-500 hours of reading on the topic…..yup lots of boring thesis reads.  So the finishing touches I need…is a emulsifier I am happy with, and I want to create a synergy of fixatives.  I have Triethyl Citrate arriving Monday, and will toss that into the brew, and I think the finalist for emulifiers will be traditional e-wax and Sepigel 305.  I am having to use 7% ethyl to dissolve the 3% Vanillin.  All my more natural emulsifiers have failed miserably.