[Graillotion]

Betaine is super hard to find….amongst the repackers….I have ONLY found it ONE place:
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894

Would love to have an alternative source!!!

[Graillotion]

ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

I see someone mentioned Jojoba esters…have you looked at this one.  I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

Nice! Thank you for the link. It has helped maintain moisture to your skin? I am very acne prone to oils, so I am curious about esters, and if they were suitable for my kind of skin.  

Yes, it has done a good job at 2% inclusion rate.  Floratech will send you a sample if you ask.  And if you like it…there are several repackers selling it in the US…I think I got mine at Noble Roots…since I did not want the large quantity that Floratech had as a minimum.  Note: I also tried a couple batches at 1.5%…and the difference was pretty notable.  So went with with 2%.  I suppose as with all formulas…. it will depend a lot of what else you are working with.

[Graillotion]

You mention lightweight lotion…and Shea in the same thread…hehehe.  Can those really be in the same discussion? (said tongue in cheek).  I have gone through the gamut of butters…and here are my top 3 for a non-greasy lotion:
(not in any particular order)… Cupuacu, Murumuru, Illipe.  
Just like mac nut oil…I found HUGE variations from suppliers.  I will ONLY buy mine from https://www.makeyourown.buzz/butters-oils-waxes-thickeners/butters/  Theirs are essentially odorless…very non greasy, refined in Denmark (from ICSC).  Simply the cleanest butters you’ll ever come across.

Probably my greatest surprise in the last project was just learning the variability of ingredients from different suppliers!  You can take the same formula….made with lower quality ingredients, and have a greasy mess….Make it again…with better versions of the same ingredients…and have something amazing.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.

I agree completely.  The formula I just finished (with some help)… I was using Isoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate…and when I compared it to just straight up Isoamyl Laurate…there was an amazing difference….much lighter….no greasy after feel etc… IL by itself is remarkably better than the 90/10 blend!  If you live in the US…you can get small amounts of IL from Formulator Sample Shop.

A little surprised to see a blend of refined oils…with unrefined oils…usually one goes all in…refined or unrefined?
Just my experience with about 7 or 8 mac nut oils…. It will blow your mind…the difference between suppliers….and refined vs unrefined.  I will disagree with Pharma…and say…unrefined mac nut is only suitable for cooking!  Of all that I tested…the hands down winner was….From Floratech.  Super lite….quick absorbing….just amazing stuff…  Will never use another supplier on that one.
Pharma turned me on to cascading emollients… So I use IL, followed by ethyhexyl palmitate, followed by Caprylic Capric Triglycerides, followed by some lite oils, followed by slightly heavier oils…. Truly a Swiss marvel of sensories!
If you want to keep your claim oils for labeling….just knock them down to .5%…you know the drill.  As I am from Hawaii…and like to keep Kukui on the label…I just include it at .5%.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

I don’t know what makes its performance but my wife and I did try that lotion by @Graillotion and yes, it definitely is hydrating and caring (and I have to admit, my wife likes it even more than my own latest creation).

Thank You Pharma.

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

Graillotion said:

I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

And how did you determine this?

Nothing scientific… I am just very sensitive and aware with what is happening to my skin.  I especially like to apply before bed…and evaluate my skin the following morning.  

When I change a single ingredient….even an adjustment up or down (.5%)…I can feel it like night and day.  I don’t think most people have that type of sensitivity.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Dr_Sara said:

I have a bit more geographic  knowledge than you might imagine.

Wasn’t meant as an offence . I simply assumed that you’re from the states due to you mentioning studies in Philadelphia. 

Hey I take offense.    Not all Americans are idiots….just most of us!     

[Graillotion]

I use ROE in my oils when I receive them…to extend storage.  Then add the E when I produce the final product.  I come from an industry….where multiple modes of action….was always better.  

[Graillotion]

Well….I use it in three different formulas….for two completely different reasons….but in the formulas that I am using it as a humectant… I use it at 2% in one and 3% in the other.  However…I always blend humectants…so it is only partially caring the humectant load.
I am working with a genius chemist…and we are also using it as component of a fragrance fixative…along with a witches brew of other things.  

[Graillotion]

I see someone mentioned Jojoba esters…have you looked at this one.  I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

[Graillotion]

Not sure what country you live in… 
But this is the only small scale supplier I have found in the US.
I use betaine, along with others…and it is very easy to work with.

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894?category=29

[Graillotion]

I use it in lotion.  Takes a better than average emulsifier (165).  I make a 1% solution, and add it as 9% of the product.  As the above post suggests…I would guess, an emulsion.  (I am a novice.)

[Graillotion]

What country do you live in?

Are your sales less than $10,000.00/yr?

[Graillotion]

Sounds like you are trying to fix an existing batch…

But going forward….what about clear Jojoba?

[Graillotion]

Are you adding any antioxidants to your formula?

Any Rosemary oil extract?

[Graillotion]

The folks on this forum are incredibly helpful.  If you are looking for ingredients suppliers….just ask… State what product you are looking for…and what country you live in….and you will more than likely get some good suggestions.

[Graillotion]

I have found out the hard way….even when comparing refined butters…from one supplier to another there are HUGE differences….from color, to scent, to how quickly they absorb (which was my biggest concern).  So at this point…I’ll put a ‘shout out’….to the company I felt…offered the best refined butters I came across in my journeys: ICSC…aka: International Cosmetics Science Centre, out of Denmark.  Head and shoulders above the rest.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

That you mention Arlacel 165 is a perfect coincidence :smiley: . Nice! @Graillotion: You reading this?

Yup….I’m reading.  I also trialed PBS 6….and can’t quite remember why I did not use it.    Would have to check my notes.

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

I’ve been using the Gosulin IL from the Gracefruit.co.uk, but honestly it is not my favourite emollient. I’ve found it a bit heavy and slow absorbing, also the skin tends to shines, especially on the face. The strange thing is that it contain about 95% Isoamyl Laurate, but i’ve been using pure Isoamyl Laurate (Esteroil from Alexmocosmetic) and it was quite different. The pure Isoamyl Laurate is light and actually a great emollient, but the Gosulin IL is not.

I second this opinion….I was using both in sample formulations…and when I skin tested them alone, there was a marked difference, with the advantage going to the 100% IL.  Could not agree more!!!

[Graillotion]

Cafe33 said:

Yes colloidal silicon dioxide

Would this be considered …. leave on….skin safe?

[Graillotion]

Pharma  Again in theory, using squalane or better yet undecane/tridecane, would be a wiser strategy…

Just curious…what is the science behind squalane working?  Just better spread and absorption?

[Graillotion]

bibsy said:

Hi! Does anyone have any experience of using “Ecosilk” (Isoamyl Laurate and Isoamyl Cocoate) in trying to reduce soaping/micro foaming in O/W emulsions??

I have found that avoiding the products known for soaping to begin with is the easiest way to overcome soaping….namely stearic acid and your emulsifier of choice.  Then the nominal soaping that might remain is easily controlled with the less effective soaping reducers like IL.  I have a formula I am putting the wraps on…and it contains 2% Daikon seed extract, 6% IL and 4% Ethylhexyl palmitate, zero stearic and Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate as the primary emulsifier = Zero soaping.
Sometimes if you put the country that you live in, when having trouble finding ingredients, members from that area can help you find a supplier.

[Graillotion]

africanbug said:

have you tried aroma-zone in France, they sell quite a good range of cosmetic ingredients too. if you order above a certain amount, shipping is free ( I don’t know about hawaii, it is free to Singapore by fedex), website is in French, only catch is it’s so hard to get GCMS from them..I’m still trying to get mine, been trying for a month now but some people from my FB group have successfully gotten them..

I did visit the site….but when my browser asked if I wanted it translated…I said ‘yes please’….and it was still in French….so I gave up.

Needs to be English, Pidgin or Korean for me!    FYI:  Pidgin was the hardest to learn…I still struggle at times.  

……….And… New Directions Aromatics has the GCMS….right on the page for each EO….which was super helpful….when doing things like looking at the Nootkatone levels in three different grapefruit EO’s that they offer!  

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Hi @Graillotion may i ask is your lotion going to be a natural mosquito repellent lotion alone or natural mosquito repellent plus beauty lotion  in the same bottle?

for discoloration i think a target group research conduct if they mild the not white (but natural) lotion or not. Some might not care about the color if the repellent performance is outstanding.

turmeric in lotion the yellow color will stick to your skin and clothes, and hard to wash off. this will give your lotion a bad review by the customers like this lotion is super great but it ruined my white shirt 7/10. sorry i can’t offer any help about your formulation in a chemistry way :'(.

If you read all my questions…you would definitely be confused.  I am developing two lotions at the same time.  A premium one, and a mosquito one.  That being said…as I had tested various natural mosquito repelling lotions made by others…I was disgusted by the lotion based ones, and the awful feel and texture they exhibited.  That combined with their ineffectiveness was almost enough to make anyone quit trying them.  So after seeing what was on the market…I realized their was a niche for a product that 1) The actual delivery vehicle was a respectable lotion. 2) A HUGE market for one that actually worked.  So…the easy part was putting the repellency into a respectable lotion…well….almost.  My research suggested that the standard essential oil platform…was certainly not enough, so I therefore decided to create the lotion from a base of carrier oils thought to repel mosquitos.  Then enhance them with an EO package.  Many of those oils…are not the light weight and silky ones one would use to create a premium  lotion!
I think it is pretty common knowledge, that the right EO’s will repel reasonably well…for about 18 minutes….hehehe….so you can guess where I have spent all my time and research and trials…..fragrance fixation.  That is were the Vanillin issues arose from.  Vanillin is one of the best fixatives for EO’s….as long as you do not mind the heavy vanilla fragrance it brings to the table, it is a marriage made in heaven.  However….vanillin LOVES to discolor anything it interacts with, and is rather difficult to emulsify….as the loads of different emulsifiers on my bench can attest to.
So where am I now?  I have an effective product….that is still a little too ‘greasy’…and starts to discolor after about a week.
Where will I be in a month?  Who knows.  

So if a customer used the entire bottle within a couple weeks time….NO ISSUE.  This is not likely, and the color progression is pretty marked….from an almost white at first….to a very yellow over the course of 2 months.  Now that….is a recipe for poor reviews.  
Don’t worry about the chemistry aspect…I have the best and brightest working on it.  

[Graillotion]

africanbug said:

try the coq10 in its pure powder form orange in colour, I use 0.4% and my emulsion is a rich yellow, too yellow for my liking but any less would be useless as an additive..

I will keep that under consideration, if I can not get rid of the discoloration.  Do you source that in the US….if so…where?  And who knows…that pretty yellow…plus oxidation….might equal puke brown!