[Graillotion]

The biggest functional difference between the cheap stick blenders….and the Mini-pro….is the ability to adjust speed.  None of the cheap ones that I burned through….could operate slowly.  Their slowest setting was faster than I often wanted in certain situations.  
The other thing….as I burned through 3 of them in about 9 months….they actually ended up being no cheaper….than one good one.   

You can not measure cost…when you need to slowly stir air out of your emulsion towards the end.

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Take a look at this one:
https://www.katom.com/048-MX07015.html

The beauty of this one…is that it has the biggest range of speeds…infinite adjustment from 0 rpm to 13,000 rpm…..so it can both emulsify and stir, unlike the cheapies on Amazon….which the lowest speed is well beyond the realm of stirring.
Very heavy duty and high quality.

Regarding which is more important… emulsifier vs stirrer….I think this question can only be answered based on which emulsifiers you intend on using!

Note…I have the above machine…and could not be more tickled with it….after burning through 3 of the Amazon types…hehehe.

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As you can see….the product I am working with…will have maximum viscosity in the range of 1.2-1.4% salt….assuming a pH of 6.  Changing the pH to 5.2….crashes the system.

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Changing the pH just by 1….can completely invert your salt curve.  Supplier should be able to provide you with a pH based salt curve.

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ifamuj said:

- If I cut sunflower oil to 10-15%, what can I replace the oil phase with to keep the formula consistent and simultaneously prevent the greasy feel? The chosen emulsifier seems to work best at an oil phase of 25-30%. 

Replace it with more water in the water phase.  It never feels greasy.

If you must add something to the oil phase…of all the things I tried…I liked this the best:

 Dermofeel Sensolv (Isoamyl Laurate)

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ifamuj said:

EVchem said:

you can also always try adding a starch to help with the stickyness, but too much will feel filmy. other than that @ngarayeva001 covered a lot of good suggestions

What sort of starches would be helpful?

I use arrowroot.

At about .8 to 1% in my premium products….and I have an oily product…(specialty niche)…where I am pushing 2%.

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I am a total novice at this…but I believe you get your pH right first…then add your salt.  The salt curve changes with the pH.  You are trying to hit a moving target. (and you are the one moving the target…hehehe.)

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I think it starts with their discipline….meaning…they will without fail…go through all the necessary steps (Korean beauty regiment)…, using quality products each day without fail!  And at some point…you have to look at genetics….if they minimize their sun (and they do at all costs)….they naturally look like they are 20 until age 50!  Everyone wants some of that!  
As I grew up in Korea…., and married to one….I see it first hand every day.  It is far more their discipline and genetics, than anything else.  In general, they will buy the ‘hottest thing going’, or something that is more expensive than the item next to it.  Ingredient research, based on my experience, is not a top priority…. Just have a couple of the hottest claim items in your product….sharp looking packaging….and you got it!

Note: Do not take my comments out of context…I have the utmost respect for their country and people!  These are just straightforward observations.

Note: I do sell some product…in Korea.

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jemolian said:

I can’t remember which shop i bought it from, i think FSS, but the smell made me gag a little. Not using it ever again. You can try it and see if you are fine with it though. 

Interesting…now of course….the first thing I will do when the package arrives….is take a deep whiff.  Ingredient listing did not look too stinky?

Luckily…I have another product I already use (K-20W) that does a pretty similar job (with no odor)….but I am always seeking the next great synergy.

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ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

Betaine is super hard to find….amongst the repackers….I have ONLY found it ONE place:
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894

Would love to have an alternative source!!!

Thanks a lot for the link. It’s the closest I have come to being able to have access to it. Can I ask why you would prefer to have another source? Is their shipping super expensive? 

Well…maybe not their shipping…just their mark-up… A lot of redundant products they sell that others also sell…are much more expensive.  Considering what Betaine is…it should not be that costly of an item!  And….. shipping is pretty darn slow…I have usually forgotten I even have an order in with them….when it finally shows up.   I think they are very aware they have a monopoly on small pack cosmetic Betaine.

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alan123 said:

Squalane or babassu oil(cheaper)

Thank you.  I already use both in my other lotion…and had planned on bringing them forward in the face cream.  Really starting to like Babassu…and can’t beat the price either!  Squalane is the base oil for my (purchased) vitamin mix, so it only ever goes in at 1%.

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ETcellphone said:

Pattsi said:

usually  acne prone skin is oily type  so they  can tolerate  acne treatment  quit well  cos most would dry their skins out.
but you are on the dry side which is make it harder to treat.

ETcellphone said:
pimples, blocked pores and irritation.

the problem might be your over all routine or daily life how you treat your skin, how u eat , how u sleep etc.

might start with how u clean ur skin.
cleansing oil or balm might be a good chioce or double clean system might do better. you have to try what’s work for you.

Tretinoin 0.025% cream might be a good start if it drys your skin then add aloe or licorice gel.

IMHO i would recommend seeking a consult from dermatologist for some period of time and when u find what is actually your problem then u can design ur own routine for urself.

 if you don’t know what cause your skin to break out it will be a bit hard to start formulate your own serum.

as for TEWL ingredient petrolatum is a gold standard, you can start on low like 0.1- 0.3 if it is still too much i say you can look into light weight baby cream like Ezerra or baby sebamed.

 Happy formulating

I tried cleansing balms in the past but they are too heavy for my skin. I need something that foams up and is oil free. I think the cleanser I am using currently is very gentle and its just the nature of my skin to get easily dried out once it is cleansed. 

I wish I could use tretinoin! However I cannot find a sunscreen that works for me (doesn’t give me acne). 

Hmm adding in a small percentage of petroleum… I never thought of it, but MAYBE it would be ok at a super small amount. 

Thanks for the tips

Here is an interesting ingredient that has caught my eye…and I will play with in my next facial cream formulation:

https://lotioncrafter.com/products/biolatum?_pos=3&_sid=354257d77&_ss=r

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lushderma said:

Sucrose Stearate makes nice light creams from my experience. 

Used as a co-emulsifier, or a primary?

Thank you for your comment.

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Are all small scale producers just using scissors?   

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jemolian said:

Normally i’d do light gel creams since it’s humid where i am, so my basic format is like this: 

• 5% - 10% Ester (normally Isononyl Isononanoate)
• 3% Lotionpro 165 or similar, Montanov L is fine as well
• 2% Cetyl Alcohol
• 1% Aristoflex AVC or 0.75% Sodium Carbomer
• Glycerin with Betaine
• Preservative 

I don’t use Glycols or Diols since they make my face tingle. Other Montanovs should be fine. It’s replaceable with Montanov 202 if you want a matte finish. 

Thank you for your response.  I have most of those items on hand.
I will experiment.

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chemicalmatt said:

You are encountering one of the steadfast rules of emulsion chemistry: avoid adding strong electrolytes to o/w emulsions at any time, but if you must, then add while at elevated temperature. IF it were w/o or w/Si, that’s a different story.

Sorry to jump in…kinda out of context…. but at what point would you add a 1% Hyaluronic acid solution to a lotion emulsion?

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Betaine is super hard to find….amongst the repackers….I have ONLY found it ONE place:
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894

Would love to have an alternative source!!!

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ETcellphone said:

Graillotion said:

I see someone mentioned Jojoba esters…have you looked at this one.  I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

Nice! Thank you for the link. It has helped maintain moisture to your skin? I am very acne prone to oils, so I am curious about esters, and if they were suitable for my kind of skin.  

Yes, it has done a good job at 2% inclusion rate.  Floratech will send you a sample if you ask.  And if you like it…there are several repackers selling it in the US…I think I got mine at Noble Roots…since I did not want the large quantity that Floratech had as a minimum.  Note: I also tried a couple batches at 1.5%…and the difference was pretty notable.  So went with with 2%.  I suppose as with all formulas…. it will depend a lot of what else you are working with.

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You mention lightweight lotion…and Shea in the same thread…hehehe.  Can those really be in the same discussion? (said tongue in cheek).  I have gone through the gamut of butters…and here are my top 3 for a non-greasy lotion:
(not in any particular order)… Cupuacu, Murumuru, Illipe.  
Just like mac nut oil…I found HUGE variations from suppliers.  I will ONLY buy mine from https://www.makeyourown.buzz/butters-oils-waxes-thickeners/butters/  Theirs are essentially odorless…very non greasy, refined in Denmark (from ICSC).  Simply the cleanest butters you’ll ever come across.

Probably my greatest surprise in the last project was just learning the variability of ingredients from different suppliers!  You can take the same formula….made with lower quality ingredients, and have a greasy mess….Make it again…with better versions of the same ingredients…and have something amazing.

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Pharma said:

You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.

I agree completely.  The formula I just finished (with some help)… I was using Isoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate…and when I compared it to just straight up Isoamyl Laurate…there was an amazing difference….much lighter….no greasy after feel etc… IL by itself is remarkably better than the 90/10 blend!  If you live in the US…you can get small amounts of IL from Formulator Sample Shop.

A little surprised to see a blend of refined oils…with unrefined oils…usually one goes all in…refined or unrefined?
Just my experience with about 7 or 8 mac nut oils…. It will blow your mind…the difference between suppliers….and refined vs unrefined.  I will disagree with Pharma…and say…unrefined mac nut is only suitable for cooking!  Of all that I tested…the hands down winner was….From Floratech.  Super lite….quick absorbing….just amazing stuff…  Will never use another supplier on that one.
Pharma turned me on to cascading emollients… So I use IL, followed by ethyhexyl palmitate, followed by Caprylic Capric Triglycerides, followed by some lite oils, followed by slightly heavier oils…. Truly a Swiss marvel of sensories!
If you want to keep your claim oils for labeling….just knock them down to .5%…you know the drill.  As I am from Hawaii…and like to keep Kukui on the label…I just include it at .5%.

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Pharma said:

I don’t know what makes its performance but my wife and I did try that lotion by @Graillotion and yes, it definitely is hydrating and caring (and I have to admit, my wife likes it even more than my own latest creation).

Thank You Pharma.

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ggpetrov said:

Graillotion said:

I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

And how did you determine this?

Nothing scientific… I am just very sensitive and aware with what is happening to my skin.  I especially like to apply before bed…and evaluate my skin the following morning.  

When I change a single ingredient….even an adjustment up or down (.5%)…I can feel it like night and day.  I don’t think most people have that type of sensitivity.

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Pharma said:

Dr_Sara said:

I have a bit more geographic  knowledge than you might imagine.

Wasn’t meant as an offence . I simply assumed that you’re from the states due to you mentioning studies in Philadelphia. 

Hey I take offense.    Not all Americans are idiots….just most of us!