[Graillotion]

Pharma  Again in theory, using squalane or better yet undecane/tridecane, would be a wiser strategy…

Just curious…what is the science behind squalane working?  Just better spread and absorption?

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bibsy said:

Hi! Does anyone have any experience of using “Ecosilk” (Isoamyl Laurate and Isoamyl Cocoate) in trying to reduce soaping/micro foaming in O/W emulsions??

I have found that avoiding the products known for soaping to begin with is the easiest way to overcome soaping….namely stearic acid and your emulsifier of choice.  Then the nominal soaping that might remain is easily controlled with the less effective soaping reducers like IL.  I have a formula I am putting the wraps on…and it contains 2% Daikon seed extract, 6% IL and 4% Ethylhexyl palmitate, zero stearic and Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate as the primary emulsifier = Zero soaping.
Sometimes if you put the country that you live in, when having trouble finding ingredients, members from that area can help you find a supplier.

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africanbug said:

have you tried aroma-zone in France, they sell quite a good range of cosmetic ingredients too. if you order above a certain amount, shipping is free ( I don’t know about hawaii, it is free to Singapore by fedex), website is in French, only catch is it’s so hard to get GCMS from them..I’m still trying to get mine, been trying for a month now but some people from my FB group have successfully gotten them..

I did visit the site….but when my browser asked if I wanted it translated…I said ‘yes please’….and it was still in French….so I gave up.

Needs to be English, Pidgin or Korean for me!    FYI:  Pidgin was the hardest to learn…I still struggle at times.  

……….And… New Directions Aromatics has the GCMS….right on the page for each EO….which was super helpful….when doing things like looking at the Nootkatone levels in three different grapefruit EO’s that they offer!  

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Pattsi said:

Hi @Graillotion may i ask is your lotion going to be a natural mosquito repellent lotion alone or natural mosquito repellent plus beauty lotion  in the same bottle?

for discoloration i think a target group research conduct if they mild the not white (but natural) lotion or not. Some might not care about the color if the repellent performance is outstanding.

turmeric in lotion the yellow color will stick to your skin and clothes, and hard to wash off. this will give your lotion a bad review by the customers like this lotion is super great but it ruined my white shirt 7/10. sorry i can’t offer any help about your formulation in a chemistry way :'(.

If you read all my questions…you would definitely be confused.  I am developing two lotions at the same time.  A premium one, and a mosquito one.  That being said…as I had tested various natural mosquito repelling lotions made by others…I was disgusted by the lotion based ones, and the awful feel and texture they exhibited.  That combined with their ineffectiveness was almost enough to make anyone quit trying them.  So after seeing what was on the market…I realized their was a niche for a product that 1) The actual delivery vehicle was a respectable lotion. 2) A HUGE market for one that actually worked.  So…the easy part was putting the repellency into a respectable lotion…well….almost.  My research suggested that the standard essential oil platform…was certainly not enough, so I therefore decided to create the lotion from a base of carrier oils thought to repel mosquitos.  Then enhance them with an EO package.  Many of those oils…are not the light weight and silky ones one would use to create a premium  lotion!
I think it is pretty common knowledge, that the right EO’s will repel reasonably well…for about 18 minutes….hehehe….so you can guess where I have spent all my time and research and trials…..fragrance fixation.  That is were the Vanillin issues arose from.  Vanillin is one of the best fixatives for EO’s….as long as you do not mind the heavy vanilla fragrance it brings to the table, it is a marriage made in heaven.  However….vanillin LOVES to discolor anything it interacts with, and is rather difficult to emulsify….as the loads of different emulsifiers on my bench can attest to.
So where am I now?  I have an effective product….that is still a little too ‘greasy’…and starts to discolor after about a week.
Where will I be in a month?  Who knows.  

So if a customer used the entire bottle within a couple weeks time….NO ISSUE.  This is not likely, and the color progression is pretty marked….from an almost white at first….to a very yellow over the course of 2 months.  Now that….is a recipe for poor reviews.  
Don’t worry about the chemistry aspect…I have the best and brightest working on it.  

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africanbug said:

try the coq10 in its pure powder form orange in colour, I use 0.4% and my emulsion is a rich yellow, too yellow for my liking but any less would be useless as an additive..

I will keep that under consideration, if I can not get rid of the discoloration.  Do you source that in the US….if so…where?  And who knows…that pretty yellow…plus oxidation….might equal puke brown!  

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africanbug said:

another option for yellow/orange is coenzyme q10 (ubiquinone), a good antioxidant..

I actually use something to this effect (comes in a squalane base)….in my premium lotion… at a 1% inclusion rate…and even though it is strongly colored…as is the rosehip oil I also include at .5%…. After emulsion….the product is still white.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

Why not just remove the Vanillin?  Regardless of what else you throw in there, Tumeric, Sea Buckthorn, the browning of the vanillin will still discolor the product … it will just be a brownish yellow instead of beige.

I have never come across an effective natural mosquito repellent….that did not contain vanillin.  It is one of the best fixatives for EO’s. (When I say natural…that is without the big licensed products…PMD, Picaridin…etc)  That being said…I have built in a multi layered fixation system….and at last resort I will kick the vanillin out.  Hehehe….and the vanillin combined with the EO’s…makes a killer scent.
Someone very skilled….(hehehe….not me) is working on this oxidation issue, so if it can be licked, it will be! But the more great minds at work…the better.

I did notice…all the other products that used vanillin…where sprays…I will be the first lotion….if success can be had.

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Perry said:

@Pharma - correct. While it is not illegal to use turmeric in your formula, it would be illegal if you are using it to specifically modify the color of your formula.  See this article for a list of approved natural cosmetic colorants.

Thank you Perry, good read.  I was not aware of this situation….granted, I had never considered coloring a product before this. 

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Cafe33 said:

Canada Post … lol It is incredible what they charge even within the country. 

essentialwholesale.com 

I have around a dozen or so different EOs from them. Excellent Lavender, never smelled a better one. Excellent peppermint, tea tree… They also have odd EOs you do not see that often. The natural Pear fragrance oil (not EO) was a huge disappointment, pretty much tossed it in the trash.

Anyway, they insisted on shipping UPS to Mexico, not sure if they will insist on the same for you. Either way, the customer service is outstanding. 

…Essential wholesale…I am not a rich enough man….to afford their prices!  
Plus I do not like to buy from places that don’t provide Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry Analysis.  I like to buy from the places that supply them.

I did get things worked out with New Directions…and have received many economical packages from them already.  Apparently there are many layers (cost structures) of Canada Post…and they were using the most premium level.  Management agreed (due to my Hawaii address) to use the lower levels…which is almost comparable to USPS.

Can’t use FedEx or UPS here….first pound is $55.00  (for real).

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Pattsi said:

Isn’t Meawdowfoam oil go rancid fast? maybe i am confused it with other oil

Yup confused.  One of the more stable oils.  Often blended with others, to give stability.

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Pharma said:

Betaine can be heated to dryness more easily without degradation. You could make smaller aliquots which you tightly seal so that you don’t have to open and close the whole bag till it all gets sticky.

Yes, hindsight is always 20/20. Next time I have to buy some…I keep a dry-room in the house, I will go in there and  will subdivide the product into 500gm baggies!  (Most Hawaiian home have no HVAC, but we often keep a closed room with a dehumidifier, where we keep our precious things, and paperwork.)

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I think you’ll find…. Suppliers will sell anything with good margin and items they find sell well.  Utopia has not yet been achieved.  

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helenhelen said:

Thanks, that’s useful to know! 90% humidity  😮 😮 :o.

Actually…delightful… I live at elevation….so temps in F…range from 48-78.  I call it Eden!

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Agreed….everything I read about oils in haircare…..Label enhancers.

You don’t have to be an unknown…to make a bad label.  

[Graillotion]

Do you live in the US?

Top US small scale suppliers (in my opinion):

Formulators sample shop…for me has the best shipping rate….for the next few weeks…any weight for $8.99.  Huge as you ramp up.  Prices are better when you start ordering less than the minimum.

LotionCrafters…. Good selection, and quickest turnaround time…usually ships in 1-2 days…at worst 3 days.

Make your Own.buzz … good prices and have some materials I could not find at others….definitely the slowest ship times.  Best butter quality…as it all comes out of a Major International supplier from Denmark.

Nobleroots:  Top tier ingredients…but limited in what they have as small pak.  Super premium ingredients….ie:  Not all macadamia nut oil is of the same quality…they use Floratech as their supplier of this…and that is over the top premium.  Amazing customer service.

I’ll toss one more in….cuz they have good descriptions…and I get two ingredients here that I could not find elsewhere.  ‘Ingredients to die for’.  Definitely the worst ship times…so you have to anticipate your needs if using them.

Making Cosmetics…I did get something from them recently…good quality…but prices are typically not competitive.

Ebay and Amazon…..last place on earth you get ingredients.  Went down that bunny trail…early on.

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@Graillotion
@Pharma @Belassi

 from and Indie Brand: 

Why is it when you say this…I immediately think….they don’t know how to make a correct label?  How many small brands have we seen….that just put the ingredients in the order they think is most appealing? You know how little Vitamin E goes into a product…and it is ahead of the Behentrimonium Methosulfate?  Argan oil is expensive…so probaly measured in drops.  

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helenhelen said:

Hi @Graillotion, I was looking into replacing some glycerin in a cream with less tacky humectants and this thread came up. I wondered what grief you were getting with the betaine in high humidity. Did you end up replacing it with glycerin in the end or did you stick with the betaine?

Also, did you ever find the betaine giving off a fishy smell? I saw this mentioned a few times from various people.

Thank you!

The issue I was having was…even with brief opening of the bag it is stored in, it is such an effective humectant, that it was gathering moisture.  Keep in mind that I live on the wet side of Hawaii…so relative humidity essentially never drops below 90.
I did end up keeping the betaine, at a lower rate.  Because I added Floratech’s K-20W Jojoba, that wants to be slurried in glycerin first, my hand was forced.  I also use sodium lactate.
I have NEVER had any odor issues with the natural Betaine I am using….resembles table sugar.  No negative odor…and let me tell you….if something were to smell fishy…. I would pick up on it.

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@Graillotion I actually got a sample from Evonik

Ahh…ok.  It just scares me…having an ingredient with only one supplier…. a recipe for trouble…down the road.  I already have two other ingredients in that boat.  

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PeaceLoveNaturals 

I will see an Indie brand with 5 oils and 2 butters in their conditioner ingredients, but when I use it, it doesnt feel heavy or too thick. 

Just a couple drops of each!  As you know…once you get below the 1% line, you can list in any order you like…. so likely they are measured in drops….but appear through creative listing…as much higher.

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

@Belassi I didnt know that about Olive oil…very interesting. Hmm then what to do with a gallon of herbal infused Olive oil? hahaha

Make salad dressing of course!

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helenhelen said:

There was also so much spray when she used the Dynamix (there was product jumping out of the beaker), 

Here is one thing I have noticed with the Dynamic in the few batches I have made with it….. If you turn it on…at high speed….YUP…things want to jump out.  However, if you start at low speed, and return to that same higher speed setting, it will not jump out.  Therefore start slow, and build up speed.  Since the Dynamic Mini-Pro has infinitely adjustable speed…this is easy to do.
I should get my roto-stator attachment this week…and will let you know.

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

Glycerl Stearate Citrate 

Where do you buy this?  I had trouble finding it.  Ended up buying it at Making cosmetics.

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

 Do you have an IG?

Sorry…what is IG?

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PeaceLoveNaturals said:

 I will look into natrasil

FYI…that is what LotionCrafters calls: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables

Many repackers sell it…under different names…If buying more than just a dab… Formulators sample shop has the best price (amongst the re-packers)…and right now… until they get their website updated…have the best shipping deal… ANY weight….$8.99…. Hehehe…you can imagine I (who live in Hawaii)….have been loading up!!!  (10 KG of Isoamyl Laurate shipped to the middle of the pacific for $8.99… almost made it as cost effective as buying from the mfg…and paying $110.00 in shipping.)

FSS calls it: Fision EcoSil

[Graillotion]

I have tried desperately to include castor in my products….it is YUK at even .5%.  Always got kicked out of the formulas in the end.

If you are desperate to get the word ‘castor’ on your label…. see if you can make this ingredient fit: Cetyl Ricinoleate.