[Graillotion]

I see someone mentioned Jojoba esters…have you looked at this one.  I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

[Graillotion]

Not sure what country you live in… 
But this is the only small scale supplier I have found in the US.
I use betaine, along with others…and it is very easy to work with.

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894?category=29

[Graillotion]

I use it in lotion.  Takes a better than average emulsifier (165).  I make a 1% solution, and add it as 9% of the product.  As the above post suggests…I would guess, an emulsion.  (I am a novice.)

[Graillotion]

What country do you live in?

Are your sales less than $10,000.00/yr?

[Graillotion]

Sounds like you are trying to fix an existing batch…

But going forward….what about clear Jojoba?

[Graillotion]

Are you adding any antioxidants to your formula?

Any Rosemary oil extract?

[Graillotion]

The folks on this forum are incredibly helpful.  If you are looking for ingredients suppliers….just ask… State what product you are looking for…and what country you live in….and you will more than likely get some good suggestions.

[Graillotion]

I have found out the hard way….even when comparing refined butters…from one supplier to another there are HUGE differences….from color, to scent, to how quickly they absorb (which was my biggest concern).  So at this point…I’ll put a ‘shout out’….to the company I felt…offered the best refined butters I came across in my journeys: ICSC…aka: International Cosmetics Science Centre, out of Denmark.  Head and shoulders above the rest.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

That you mention Arlacel 165 is a perfect coincidence :smiley: . Nice! @Graillotion: You reading this?

Yup….I’m reading.  I also trialed PBS 6….and can’t quite remember why I did not use it.    Would have to check my notes.

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

I’ve been using the Gosulin IL from the Gracefruit.co.uk, but honestly it is not my favourite emollient. I’ve found it a bit heavy and slow absorbing, also the skin tends to shines, especially on the face. The strange thing is that it contain about 95% Isoamyl Laurate, but i’ve been using pure Isoamyl Laurate (Esteroil from Alexmocosmetic) and it was quite different. The pure Isoamyl Laurate is light and actually a great emollient, but the Gosulin IL is not.

I second this opinion….I was using both in sample formulations…and when I skin tested them alone, there was a marked difference, with the advantage going to the 100% IL.  Could not agree more!!!

[Graillotion]

Cafe33 said:

Yes colloidal silicon dioxide

Would this be considered …. leave on….skin safe?

[Graillotion]

Pharma  Again in theory, using squalane or better yet undecane/tridecane, would be a wiser strategy…

Just curious…what is the science behind squalane working?  Just better spread and absorption?

[Graillotion]

bibsy said:

Hi! Does anyone have any experience of using “Ecosilk” (Isoamyl Laurate and Isoamyl Cocoate) in trying to reduce soaping/micro foaming in O/W emulsions??

I have found that avoiding the products known for soaping to begin with is the easiest way to overcome soaping….namely stearic acid and your emulsifier of choice.  Then the nominal soaping that might remain is easily controlled with the less effective soaping reducers like IL.  I have a formula I am putting the wraps on…and it contains 2% Daikon seed extract, 6% IL and 4% Ethylhexyl palmitate, zero stearic and Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate as the primary emulsifier = Zero soaping.
Sometimes if you put the country that you live in, when having trouble finding ingredients, members from that area can help you find a supplier.

[Graillotion]

africanbug said:

have you tried aroma-zone in France, they sell quite a good range of cosmetic ingredients too. if you order above a certain amount, shipping is free ( I don’t know about hawaii, it is free to Singapore by fedex), website is in French, only catch is it’s so hard to get GCMS from them..I’m still trying to get mine, been trying for a month now but some people from my FB group have successfully gotten them..

I did visit the site….but when my browser asked if I wanted it translated…I said ‘yes please’….and it was still in French….so I gave up.

Needs to be English, Pidgin or Korean for me!    FYI:  Pidgin was the hardest to learn…I still struggle at times.  

……….And… New Directions Aromatics has the GCMS….right on the page for each EO….which was super helpful….when doing things like looking at the Nootkatone levels in three different grapefruit EO’s that they offer!  

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Pattsi said:

Hi @Graillotion may i ask is your lotion going to be a natural mosquito repellent lotion alone or natural mosquito repellent plus beauty lotion  in the same bottle?

for discoloration i think a target group research conduct if they mild the not white (but natural) lotion or not. Some might not care about the color if the repellent performance is outstanding.

turmeric in lotion the yellow color will stick to your skin and clothes, and hard to wash off. this will give your lotion a bad review by the customers like this lotion is super great but it ruined my white shirt 7/10. sorry i can’t offer any help about your formulation in a chemistry way :'(.

If you read all my questions…you would definitely be confused.  I am developing two lotions at the same time.  A premium one, and a mosquito one.  That being said…as I had tested various natural mosquito repelling lotions made by others…I was disgusted by the lotion based ones, and the awful feel and texture they exhibited.  That combined with their ineffectiveness was almost enough to make anyone quit trying them.  So after seeing what was on the market…I realized their was a niche for a product that 1) The actual delivery vehicle was a respectable lotion. 2) A HUGE market for one that actually worked.  So…the easy part was putting the repellency into a respectable lotion…well….almost.  My research suggested that the standard essential oil platform…was certainly not enough, so I therefore decided to create the lotion from a base of carrier oils thought to repel mosquitos.  Then enhance them with an EO package.  Many of those oils…are not the light weight and silky ones one would use to create a premium  lotion!
I think it is pretty common knowledge, that the right EO’s will repel reasonably well…for about 18 minutes….hehehe….so you can guess where I have spent all my time and research and trials…..fragrance fixation.  That is were the Vanillin issues arose from.  Vanillin is one of the best fixatives for EO’s….as long as you do not mind the heavy vanilla fragrance it brings to the table, it is a marriage made in heaven.  However….vanillin LOVES to discolor anything it interacts with, and is rather difficult to emulsify….as the loads of different emulsifiers on my bench can attest to.
So where am I now?  I have an effective product….that is still a little too ‘greasy’…and starts to discolor after about a week.
Where will I be in a month?  Who knows.  

So if a customer used the entire bottle within a couple weeks time….NO ISSUE.  This is not likely, and the color progression is pretty marked….from an almost white at first….to a very yellow over the course of 2 months.  Now that….is a recipe for poor reviews.  
Don’t worry about the chemistry aspect…I have the best and brightest working on it.  

[Graillotion]

africanbug said:

try the coq10 in its pure powder form orange in colour, I use 0.4% and my emulsion is a rich yellow, too yellow for my liking but any less would be useless as an additive..

I will keep that under consideration, if I can not get rid of the discoloration.  Do you source that in the US….if so…where?  And who knows…that pretty yellow…plus oxidation….might equal puke brown!  

[Graillotion]

africanbug said:

another option for yellow/orange is coenzyme q10 (ubiquinone), a good antioxidant..

I actually use something to this effect (comes in a squalane base)….in my premium lotion… at a 1% inclusion rate…and even though it is strongly colored…as is the rosehip oil I also include at .5%…. After emulsion….the product is still white.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

Why not just remove the Vanillin?  Regardless of what else you throw in there, Tumeric, Sea Buckthorn, the browning of the vanillin will still discolor the product … it will just be a brownish yellow instead of beige.

I have never come across an effective natural mosquito repellent….that did not contain vanillin.  It is one of the best fixatives for EO’s. (When I say natural…that is without the big licensed products…PMD, Picaridin…etc)  That being said…I have built in a multi layered fixation system….and at last resort I will kick the vanillin out.  Hehehe….and the vanillin combined with the EO’s…makes a killer scent.
Someone very skilled….(hehehe….not me) is working on this oxidation issue, so if it can be licked, it will be! But the more great minds at work…the better.

I did notice…all the other products that used vanillin…where sprays…I will be the first lotion….if success can be had.

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Perry said:

@Pharma - correct. While it is not illegal to use turmeric in your formula, it would be illegal if you are using it to specifically modify the color of your formula.  See this article for a list of approved natural cosmetic colorants.

Thank you Perry, good read.  I was not aware of this situation….granted, I had never considered coloring a product before this. 

[Graillotion]

Cafe33 said:

Canada Post … lol It is incredible what they charge even within the country. 

essentialwholesale.com 

I have around a dozen or so different EOs from them. Excellent Lavender, never smelled a better one. Excellent peppermint, tea tree… They also have odd EOs you do not see that often. The natural Pear fragrance oil (not EO) was a huge disappointment, pretty much tossed it in the trash.

Anyway, they insisted on shipping UPS to Mexico, not sure if they will insist on the same for you. Either way, the customer service is outstanding. 

…Essential wholesale…I am not a rich enough man….to afford their prices!  
Plus I do not like to buy from places that don’t provide Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry Analysis.  I like to buy from the places that supply them.

I did get things worked out with New Directions…and have received many economical packages from them already.  Apparently there are many layers (cost structures) of Canada Post…and they were using the most premium level.  Management agreed (due to my Hawaii address) to use the lower levels…which is almost comparable to USPS.

Can’t use FedEx or UPS here….first pound is $55.00  (for real).

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Isn’t Meawdowfoam oil go rancid fast? maybe i am confused it with other oil

Yup confused.  One of the more stable oils.  Often blended with others, to give stability.

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Betaine can be heated to dryness more easily without degradation. You could make smaller aliquots which you tightly seal so that you don’t have to open and close the whole bag till it all gets sticky.

Yes, hindsight is always 20/20. Next time I have to buy some…I keep a dry-room in the house, I will go in there and  will subdivide the product into 500gm baggies!  (Most Hawaiian home have no HVAC, but we often keep a closed room with a dehumidifier, where we keep our precious things, and paperwork.)

[Graillotion]

I think you’ll find…. Suppliers will sell anything with good margin and items they find sell well.  Utopia has not yet been achieved.  

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Thanks, that’s useful to know! 90% humidity  😮 😮 :o.

Actually…delightful… I live at elevation….so temps in F…range from 48-78.  I call it Eden!

[Graillotion]

Agreed….everything I read about oils in haircare…..Label enhancers.

You don’t have to be an unknown…to make a bad label.