[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Graillotion said:

suswang8 said:

Thank you.  I actually just bought the same beaker for the same reason.

In terms of aeration, do you find you need to stir air out of your batches after you’ve used the homogenizing tip?  Or not necessary?

I’m trying to decide between this, the Ocis 2.0, or maybe a used Turrax from eBay.  Hmmmm.

Actually funny you bring that up….when I send samples of the cream to my test group (all of whom have some skill set in cosmetics), one of the first things they ask me…..is how do you get a product with no air in it???  I don’t know the answer….that is just how it comes out.  
Let me first say….the equipment seen in your video…is EXACTLY what I use (Dynamic version….same company).  I use Montanov 202 as a primary emulsifier, and also include a polymeric and some carbomer.  So my emulsions thicken instantly when the phases are combined.

So no…I do not NEED to stir air out….but I do stir (with a spatula) at least 10 times t/o cool down.  The tall narrow beaker….allows me the keep the head submerged…so I suspect very little air is introduced.

Hi, Graillotion.
I got the Dynamic and did a first test using this blade:

Although I had the head submerged, it seems like it still incorporates a bit of air.  My results were very similar to what that lady above on YouTube got — except she was using the Blender Tool homogenizer — with a thick, marshmallow/meringue-type texture.  I want to get the Blender Tool, largely because I could use it with smaller samples, but not if it too adds in air.  

I might also try this blade:

Did you find the Blender Tool incorporates less air than either of these two blades?  Also, are you using your device slanted (at an angle)?

Thank you.

I use the dairy blade….when making lotion…and the blender tool…when making cream.  Yes, I seem to get less air with the blender tool.  I tend to run the homogenizer tool at an angle…because when straight up and down it seems to form a suction on the bottom of the beaker….the angle breaks the suction and the product seems to mix better.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Also, on what speed setting are you able to comfortable use it?  I can see from this video, the person can’t safely take it past 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHBO2O2b5rs&t=757s

Thanks again.

Loved the video….supports what I had suspected.

Ok….I think this lady…has never really worked with her machine.    Yes…if you start it at 4…the contents will jump out of the beaker!  However…if you start it at 2…and ease it up….you can take it to 6….no sweat.  I am LMAO….that she tried to start it at high speed.
So I always run it at 6!!!!  But NEVER start it at 6….the beaker would be empty!  :p 

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Thank you.  I actually just bought the same beaker for the same reason.

In terms of aeration, do you find you need to stir air out of your batches after you’ve used the homogenizing tip?  Or not necessary?

I’m trying to decide between this, the Ocis 2.0, or maybe a used Turrax from eBay.  Hmmmm.

Actually funny you bring that up….when I send samples of the cream to my test group (all of whom have some skill set in cosmetics), one of the first things they ask me…..is how do you get a product with no air in it???  I don’t know the answer….that is just how it comes out.  
Let me first say….the equipment seen in your video…is EXACTLY what I use (Dynamic version….same company).  I use Montanov 202 as a primary emulsifier, and also include a polymeric and some carbomer.  So my emulsions thicken instantly when the phases are combined.

So no…I do not NEED to stir air out….but I do stir (with a spatula) at least 10 times t/o cool down.  The tall narrow beaker….allows me the keep the head submerged…so I suspect very little air is introduced.

[Graillotion]

when I formulate….I make 150 gm batches.

But I use a special beaker…that keeps the entire head submerged…see attached. (I use the tall skinny 250ml version)

https://www.amazon.com/Beaker-Borosilicate-Single-Karter-Scientific/dp/B006VYY09Q/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=250ml+narrow+beaker&sr=8-7

Sorry…I meant, I use the high dollar homogenizing tip….the one that cost more than the machine.  :pensive:

And FYI:  Most stick blender heads will not fit down into that beaker…as it is narrow….part of why I use the roto stator emulsifying head. 

[Graillotion]

Well….this is a tough question to answer.  To answer it correctly, I would have had to make two identical formulas, and use one attachment on each.
When I make 165 based emulsions…I just use the blender attachment.  When I am making a lamellar emulsion, I have always used the emulsifier, since I am using it for a short amount of time, then switching to stirring.
Those that have tried my lamellar emulsions have raved about them.  But as mentioned at the beginning, I do not know, had I used the other attachment, maybe they would have been just as good?
So I have exclusively used the emulsifier for my new lamellar projects.

[Graillotion]

Following….

Just curious….why when Evonik is offering formulas with these two emulsifiers…I believe every one of them has a pinch of Hydrogenated Castor Oil?

[Graillotion]

How are you emulsifying?  You mention stirring.  Please describe your process.

[Graillotion]

Switch to Kpangnan.  

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Emulgreen L15’s INCI is C15-19 alkanes meaning that some molecules in there does evaporate but rather slowly whilst others nearly don’t.

Pentadecane (C15) is liquid at RT and has a high vapour pressure which, like essential oils, lets them evaporate well below its boiling temperature.

The other end of the mixtures spectrum is nonadecane (C19) which is solid at RT and has a very low vapour pressure, it does not really evaporate but feels dry (because it’s solid).

If you’re looking for faster drying and full evaporation, go with undecane, dodecane, and/or tridecane (C11-13) which evaporate fast and dry quickly or isododecane which has about the same vapour pressure as ethanol and takes longer to fully dissipate. Notably, C4 and C5 have lower vapour pressure but still evaporate.

What all these molecules have in common and what seems contradictory to volatility is a high boiling point well above 200°C (if memory serves me right). The reason which greatly contributes to their good volatility is small molecular weights and low intermolecular interactions. Meaning, the lower the number in their INCI name, the faster they evaporate.

I have been fascinated with the ‘canes’….but have been unable to work with them.  Due to living on a rock in the middle of the Pacific, everything must be air freighted in….and so anything with a low flash point, I can not acquire (without moving mountains). 

Does anything have these properties, with a higher flash point (I know….counter intuitive), that I could work with it?

Is there a combo like Cetiol Ultimate, that some sort of synergy magical raises the flashpoint?  :p 

[Graillotion]

I buy all my commercial stuff here:

https://packagingoptionsdirect.com/15-ml-frosted-clear-glass-jar-with-36-mm-matte-silver-lined-closure-f217-liner

https://packagingoptionsdirect.com/30-ml-frosted-clear-glass-jar-with-46-mm-matte-silver-lined-closure-f217-liner

When you are asking for help buying things…. It is always helpful if you will state what country you live in. 

Amazon also has the frosted style….just search for it.

[Graillotion]

[Graillotion]

Sometimes….Just plain old Amazon….surprises.  I have used both of these, and are good quality:

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

From the results on ulprospector there are some blends, but i didn’t manage to find any when googling, so i’ll probably buy the Phenethyl alcohol separately. 

I’ve tested with the Phenylpropanol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin from Making Cosmetics, the fragance wise i’m fine with it but if when using plant oils, you won’t be able to smell it anymore. Not sure if Phenethyl alcohol will be the overwhelmed by plant oils. Also Phenylpropanol make my skin tingle, not sure if Phenethyl alcohol would. I’m hoping not. If not i would have to stick to PE 9010 and perhaps use a booster. 

Well the funny thing in all this….the fragrance of choice for the cream was going to be… Bulgarian Rose absolute.  I was having a bit of problem with the scent sticking (at low rate), so Phenethyl alcohol….might just be the absolute, (pun intended) solution for this cream.   

[Graillotion]

Phenethyl alcohol has peaked my interest.

Are there any commonly available preservative pre-mixes…that already include this, or is it always added separately since it might not mix well?  (A mix that will function well around a 6.0 pH.)

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

Oh my, Korean Market is so hard lol in my humble opinion.
if you go for cosmetics, I say you can have shinny glossy filmy dewy product youngster seem to like it that way. I assumed you speak Korean, many bloggers or influencers seem to have concluded the more dewy, the slower absorption, means the more skin hydration.
if you go for functional cosmetics, I say your cream should better have quick absorb feeling.
I think your wife is spot on Korean trend. Don’t forget to compare your price with others around 홍대, 이대.

I am a citizen of the world, a whitey, born in Africa, and raised in Korea.  Was once completely fluent in Korean, but lost it after not using it for 30 years.  But was surprised how quickly it came back, after meeting my Korean wife…hehhe.  
The Korean market has kinda just fallen into my lap, as my wife was a sort of influencer, and hung out with the same kind.  We also make really pretty labels…hehehe…and I think that is at least half of it.
I’ve got the quick absorbing thing nailed…. and I know how to make it slower absorbing, and more glossy….so I guess I will have to make two creams. 
Enjoy one of my wife’s paintings…from our yard.
Aloha.

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

  For my next adventure, I will be using either a combination of cetyl alcohol and sorbitan stearate, or Montanov 202.  I am looking for something “natural” as well as non-comedogenic.           

I am working on a cream as well, and followed some Seppic examples of splitting the emulsifier between M 202 and M 68.  Yes 68 makes a VERY rich feeling product.  For my taste…even too rich at 50/50 Ratio.  I ended up with 3 parts 202 with 1 part 68, and that still imparts a richness.
Generally speaking….M 68 should be pared with a co-emulsifier like Eumulgin SG, aka: Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate.  I have seen others say that a pairing with Glyceryl stearate citrate also works.

[Graillotion]

ifamuj said:

My moisturisers tend to feel greasy so I wanted to try and see if an alcohol may help to lessen that effect. Here’s an example of the kind of face cream I have formulated in the past:

Water phase:
	Water
4	Propylene glycol
1	Glycerin
3	Sodium lactate
0.2	Disodium EDTA
0.1	Hyaluronic acid
0.1	Solagum AX
0.5	Allantoin
1	Colloidal oatmeal
1	Niacinamide
1	Panthenol
1	Sorbitol
1	Betaine
0.5	Phenonip
Oil phase
4	Montanov 68 (Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Cetearyl Glucoside)
2	Cetyl alcohol
22	Sunflower oil
1	Dimethicone
0.5	Phenonip
0.1	BHT
Cool down
2	Urea
5	Centella asiatica extract
0.5	Vitamin E
0.5	pH adjustment

Please throw some insight on how I can make it feel less greasy.

You have a pretty high percentage of an oil…that is not the lightest in the world… Try decreasing the oil phase…and use some quicker absorbing oils….Rosehip, raspberry, Meadowfoam, Babassu…etc.
Mont 68, has a very rich feel, which can be translated as a little oily.  I am currently working on a cream….And use Mont 202 as the primary and 68 as a co-emulsifier, and that strikes a nice balance between light, and rich.  Mont 68 can be difficult to work with, you might consider adding some Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate, to strengthen that emulsion.

[Graillotion]

natasha3211 said:

You need to get good information for your face cream 

https://www.blendsmartreviews.com/what-is-kabuki-brush/

Did you send the link you intended?  That one was about a Kabuki brush???

[Graillotion]

Pharma said:

Using it at low % and in conjunction with antioxidants and a chelate greatly increases shelf life once formulated. The more stable “GLA oils” usually contain a higher % of saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids and/or high amounts of antioxidants.

Polyunsaturated fatty acids are all penetrating skin deep but do so fairly slowly and, since they are very liquid oils usually with C16-20 carbon chains, feel oily/greasy.

Be careful when reading about ‘drying’ oils. This term often refers to oils drying (=polymerising) when used as oil paint or varnish. Cosmetic bloggers and copy-pasters think that they do so on skin too. Sure, an oil with good skin resorption will ultimately feel ‘dry’ and this often coincides with drying oil paints but not always (or rather, many non-drying ones quickly feel dry on skin like macadamia nut oil).

There’s a ton of ingredients and strategies used to correct or mask undesirable effects such as an oily afterfeel.

Thank you for your enlightening comments.
I was aware, since I primarily work with the ‘dry’ oils, that they are VERY soothing to my skin.  And yes, sadly the low end of cosmetics is almost entirely a ‘cut and paste’ situation.  Whenever I research a new ingredient, I read the same description 10X!
I appreciate the fact that I can lengthen the shelf life if these more fragile oils with proper formulation.
Since with the GLA’s, I will primarily be seeking ‘claim’ value, I can keep inclusion low, and they should not alter the feel too much.

vielen Dank

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

I have polymetylilsesquioxane in one finished cream (and more under developing) mainly for spreadability.
less powdery than sepimat sb.
less matte than sepimat sb, more of a soft-focus than matte. but not shine during the day.
skin feel defers by size too 2, 4.5 , 7 , 10

So you like the feel that polymety…. adds?
The vendor I can get if from offer the 4-6 micron.
Can you describe…what you felt it added to the product?
Thank you for your feedback.

So am I understanding….that polymety…, and Sepimat sb…give about the same textural feeling, only the matte/gloss is different?

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

There are so many ingredients that can improve aesthetics without compromising on stability though. Various esters with different melting points and spreadability, silicone elastomers, powders like polymetylilsesquioxane, polymers.. I am sure there’s more.

Ok….you have peaked my interest with the 

Polymethylsilsesquioxane

Especially….since I can get it.    

So I know you said you had not worked with Penstia ( INCI: Adipic Acid/Neopentyl Glycol Crosspolymer), but the descriptions seem similar.  Can you or anyone compare these products?  The Penstia did not seem to give me any ‘First Touch’ oooh la lah…that I was looking for, and in fact, seemed to make the oils absorb slower into the skin, which I am not sure is what I am looking for.

So I also see that it is a bit of a film former, and water proofer….is that just a general statement that follows all silicone’s around?   Would those characteristics bring anything negative to a day cream?

All input on polymethylsilsequioxane…would be appreciated.  It does not require a special solvent….right? 

I have just a touch of soaping that I need to work out of the formula….do you think this would help?

Where would you start….as an inclusion rate?  2%?

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Hehe…. @jemolian, you know my issues…as I split sales between Korea and the US.

Early samples are on the way to Korea, arriving this week…I should have feedback soon.

My head says….make a day cream that completely absorbs, and a night cream…that takes a little longer.

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

 Anyway, I have had a successful emulsions when combined Montanov 202 with an anionic emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate Citrate.

I use GSC in another formula, where final feel is not of concern, but tough as heck emulsifying is.  For me…it brings too much of an oily feel to the finished product, even at a .5% inclusion rate.
So if you read through the thread,  Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate has seemingly provided me with the missing component to strengthen the emulsion.  
To date I have not released a product that cannot withstand 20 minutes of centrifuge.  

This formula is completely stripped of electrolytes, sans the .2% EDTA..

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

Btw I recently discovered sepimat sb by Seppic. Go to for mattifying. I use it in face powder but it’s used in emulsions.

Thank you.  I think I am more about not wanting shine…vs needing matte…if that makes any sense at all.  The formula as is (but not done), is in a happy place for me.  I love to learn about new products, so keep throwing them at me!

[Graillotion]

ngarayeva001 said:

What do montanovs emulsifiers do that 165 doesn’t? Emolliency?

YES!  As far as emulsifying….nothing beats 165…we all know that.
As far as feel…. especially adding some 68 to the 202… really gives a silky glide.  The original plan…after getting most of the pieces in places….was to work on the feel, tweak the esters and add-ons…but after adding the 68… That whole process got scrapped.  It feels amazing as is.  Nothing like the 165 only or M 202 only.
Of course I have followed all your other recommendations on polymerics and carbomer, and Pharma’s cascading emollient (ester) program.  Combined with some very silky oils…Babassu, Camellia and Meadowfoam plus Rosehip and Raspberry seed oils.
And the 68 seemed to bring more emolliency that the 202… But the 202 makes for a very lite feel…and matte finish that I like.  I did not try….Just a M 68 formula…and do not intend on it.