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Pharma said:

I have dicaprylyl carbonate and it does feel pretty much like all the other low viscosity ester oils. It is a ‘double ester’ wherein the acid part is carbonic acid instead of a fatty acid. I have no idea why it does what it does on your skin. However, its structure is somewhat different and its interactions with skin are expected to be different too. Still, I’m somewhat astonished and will do a trial, neat, carbonate against ester oils, next time I take the bottle into my hands (if I don’t forget to). I should also ask my wife to participate, her skin sounds like yours… I often joke that she could survive simply by using body lotion instead of eating.

How would you compare it with Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, @Pharma ? 
A cursory glance at US re-packers drew a blank.  But I can get….and use… CCC (used in the hand cream).

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The Floratech Mac nut oil…will be as refined as you will find….(for good or bad…I think in your case…for the good.)

And you are correct, I never ask the esters to shoulder the load when it comes to moisturizing, they are there for texture.

On the Illipe hand cream….I am using a very low rate (1%), because I am trying to make a product that does not ‘fingerprint’ much on the modern devices we live with.  Depending how the first hand cream goes….maybe I will make an ‘industrial strength’ version later on…hehehe.

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helenhelen said:

@Pharma @Graillotion Thanks both. I have been avoiding nut products, which is why I haven’t already used macadamia nut oil despite its palmitoleic acid content… I am always tempted but then I am worried I will love it …

When I started this last hand cream project….there were only two knowns…..
Illipe would be the butter….
And Mac Nut and Black Currant …. would be part of the oil profile.

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Pharma said:

Ethyl macadamiate should have the same proportions of fatty acids as the native oil.

However, ethyl macadamiate is neither macadamia nut oil nor oleic and palmitoleic acid .

Also couldn’t find it a repackers, would love to try it! All I need is a vacuum pump and a tap water adaper so I can finally make my own (I have the rotary evaporator, a reflux system, and all the required chemicals…).

Can I buy a useful but cheap vacuum pump (China style LoL) on Amazon?

I send a sample…soon.

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helenhelen said:

@Pharma @Graillotion Thanks both. I have been avoiding nut products, which is why I haven’t already used macadamia nut oil despite its palmitoleic acid content… I am always tempted but then I am worried I will love it and not be able to add it in the final product. Apparently Phytosteryl Macadamiate (which I have tried) has 20% palmitoleic acid as well… but I’ve never got it to not feel heavy in a cream.

I am using avocado oil at the moment for the palmitoleic acid.. and it’s fine but sea buckthorn oil has a much nicer, more neutral afterfeel instead of the slightly oilier afterfeel of avocado oil.

@RedCoast I haven’t actually tried the sea buckthorn oil in an emulsion yet - I can tell even 1% will make it yellow! I should try it though…

I am using phytosterols in most products…and have found that if I want to keep them in the range of ‘butterfly kiss’s’…I have to keep that level at .5% or so.

Have you experienced a reaction to mac nut oil?  Most nut allergy suffers….will not (not all).  If you can get your hands of mac nut oil that originated from FloraTech….that stuff is clean…and magical.

Now I am going to jump into a (I am) clueless line of thought…. There is also a product called ethyl macadamiate (Floratech makes this as well…and probably others)… and what I don’t know is what the level of palmtoleic acid is (if any) that transfers through from the transformation.  I think @Pharma might be able to shed some light on this….  But a wonderful product that won’t limit what you can make.  I have not used it (other than in formulating)…as I could not find a reliable small pack source for it.  

“Ethyl macadamiate is a mixture of the ethyl esters of the free fatty acids produced by the complete saponification of macadamia oil. The primary constituents of ethyl macadamiate are ethyl oleate and ethyl palmitoleate.”

I’ll see if I can find any details on that….later.

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Pharma said:

HOLY SH*ç”! @Graillotion I have completely zapped that mac nut oil contains that high level of palmitoleic acid! @helenhelen That oil is awsom, not just the nuts .

Soory, I have to go (to my *shame on me* corner).

Sometimes even the grasshopper surprises the master! 🙂

[Graillotion]

Macadamia nut oil…is not too far off the pace….and a favorite of at least a couple of us….in this thread.   

[Graillotion]

suswang8 said:

Graillotion said:

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid is a stronger antioxidant than tocopherol and other phenolics. If you want to protect these, go with ascorbic acid for water soluble compounds or ascorbyl palmitate for oil soluble ones. 

Good read @Pharma, as you know I have a super duper oxidation issue with one of me developments, and I will try it today with both ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate.  That way I working in both phases.  I did make an observation a while back, which I was not able to scientifically metabolize, I have that antioxidant blend I use (costly) that contains ascorbyl palmitate, various forms of E etc.  When I used that in one of the samples of said product, it seemed to have the most reduced oxidation.  I thought it was just my imagination….but maybe I/we are on to something!
Thank You

Flashback Thursday:  @Graillotion, can we ask if you found success using ascorbic acid (and ascorbyl palmitate?) to prevent oxidation?

Hehehe….hardly a fair question… The product I was having issue with has Vanillin in it between 250 and 500 times typical levels.  So we are not really discussing typical oxidation.  So first…. Ascorbic acid and ascorbyl palmitate are proven antioxidants (and included in this product).   So the issue is not do they work….they do.  However, you probably meant….have I eliminated the oxidation.  So let me say…this product also has Vitamin E, ROE, and Bisabolol as part of my standard antioxidant package, PLUS Sodium metabisulfite, PLUS Sodium thiosulfate.  So more than your run of the mill antioxidant package.

Has all oxidation been removed?  No….but after a 6 month hiatus I made the formula again this past week…and made a few additional tweaks.  Even with airless light blocking containers, I still get a gradual color shift over 6 months.  If I market this product…it will be done with a 6 month shelf life.  So I’ll see if additional tweaks…make a difference.

Just for fun….I made the formula without the vanillin a year ago….filled a clear plastic bottle half full…and placed it in my sunniest window…..White as snow…a year later….so no doubt the mega dose of vanillin is the culprit.  And before you ask….the product is completely ineffective…without the vanillin.  (Which I knew going into this project…as I had tested myriads of natural alternatives prior to taking this on….and only the products with a good vanillin load worked for me.)  How did the others make it not oxidise …you ask?  Of course….they did not make an emulsion…hehehe…. Only I was dumb enough to try that.

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@Perry 

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MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

I would use a combination of CBD and CBG

I find it about impossible to find dosing for the cannabinoids (this of course is intentional), so any idea on dosing for a cream?  I am using 1% of CBD Isolate….I assume I will keep that the same, and just add some CBG.  Since it is a pricey ingredient (more than double the cost of CBD), what level would I have to include to hopefully create an effect?

Obviously inclusion rate hinges on potency….so let’s use this as an example:

Untitled (industrialhempfarms.com)

You formulate CBD products to a target load of CBD (or CBG) in milligrams per unit.  It looks like you’re making a cream with 1,000 mg CBD, which is a good strength for a pain management product.  It’s completely up to you on the strength.  You might do 1,000 mg CBD + 200 - 400 mg CBG, for instance.

Thank you for your helpful insights Mark.  In this scenario, as a pain cream formulator, I am very hamstrung by not suffering from any type of chronic pain, thereby eliminating myself as a test subject.  Do you have anyone in-house (literally and figuratively) that suffers pain that a cream like this might mitigate?  I am always looking for test subjects that can provide quality feedback.  If so, I would love to send you a sample.  You can PM me…with address.
This is not a half-a$$ formula….it is made with watchful oversight and input from someone I believe you respect, someone who’s PhD focused on phytochemistry and pharmacognosy.  

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

I would use a combination of CBD and CBG

I find it about impossible to find dosing for the cannabinoids (this of course is intentional), so any idea on dosing for a cream?  I am using 1% of CBD Isolate….I assume I will keep that the same, and just add some CBG.  Since it is a pricey ingredient (more than double the cost of CBD), what level would I have to include to hopefully create an effect?

Obviously inclusion rate hinges on potency….so let’s use this as an example:

Untitled (industrialhempfarms.com)

[Graillotion]

Here is the comparison from my vendor:

CBD Distillate

CBD is put through a process of heating and cooling to produce CBD distillate, a much purer, cleaner and more potent form of the compound. CBD distillate typically contains about 90% CBD. While CBD distillate doesn’t contain as high a concentration of CBD as CBD isolate, it does retain many of the other therapeutic compounds in the cannabis plant, like terpenes, vitamins, waxes and antioxidants. Made using a process of chromatography, CBD distillate comes in liquid form.

CBD Isolate

Even more concentrated than CBD distillate is CBD isolate, containing 99% CBD. For people with allergies or other reactions to the terpenes, waves or other compounds in cannabis, CBD offers the cleanest form of the compound. Typically made through a process of CO2 extraction, CBD isolate comes in refined, white powder form that can be added to foods, beverages, topicals and tinctures alike

So if I understand that….the distillate with give me some of the secondary goodies?  @MarkBroussard

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

[Graillotion]

I have read about the entourage effect, and that is what I was referencing with the term….’extra goodies’   As I have to this point…essentially used marketing blurbs as my research, I would love some solid scientific links, pertaining to the entourage effect. @DrJekyll and @Microformulation.  I have a ultra healthy suspicion of suppliers, especially when they are not providing data.  Hence I had assumed that the entourage effect…even though very plausible sounding….was marketing hype…designed to market a product that was easier to produce without all the extra steps of refinement.

As I am still formulating this project, I am still open to play the field as far as CBD suppliers. @MarkBroussard is there a reasonable priced supplier of CBD Rosin in the US, that will sell it at super small amounts?  (Right now I am buying 10-25 grams of isolate at a time, while formulating.)  So you feel the Rosin is much better than the Isolate I have been using?

I am also trying to keep the product essentially THC free…even at the tester level, I have seen great concern in this regard.  Various testers have jobs or military careers they absolutely can not jeopardize.

I am ready to learn more factual info on the entourage effect…hopefully a THC free version of the entourage effect.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Microformulation said:

For example, we wanted our CBD in Squalane (do your research on that), and can only get it in MCT.

Are you making just a CBD oil?  Or are you making an emulsion to deliver your CBD?

You must be referring to this kind of result?

I am working together with one of the chemist on this site to make a pain relief cream….and we use both (Squalane and CBD)… but the Squalane is only at 1%.  Do you think that is enough to enhance the delivery?

I am essentially making my own infusion, as I buy the CBD as an isolate.  Do you use the pure CBD…or the one with some extra goodies?

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raiyana said:

you might wanna add 2% niacinamide for claims.
https://doi.org/10.1080/14764170600717704

Are you saying that niacinamide reduces shine?

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With additional reading… I understand that in order to mattify….the silica needs to be within a certain micron range.  What would be the ideal range with regards to micron and mattifying?

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I suppose one concern would be….that if these two have fine enough grind…that they don’t become an abrasive.  

Does anyone know the comparison of particle size between Aerosil 200 and Greensil?

One last question…as one of the products I am considering experimenting with this in is cationic… I have had to deal with working around my normal gelling agents.  Silica is sometimes marketed as an oil gelling agent in the 5-10% range.  At the low rates I am considering, 1-2%….will this have any enhancement in creating a gel undertone to the cream?

[Graillotion]

My theory has always been….the less shine you put into a formula…the less shine you have to work on getting rid of at the end of the formula… Simply meaning if I have two or three ingredients that can essentially do the same thing…I apply them neat…and choose the least shiny.  Then when tweaking the finished product…only minimal inputs are required for corrections.

As far as M 202 goes…I have read that it is supposed to make a more matte emulsion, but I have hundreds of samples that would disagree.  I love M 202…just sometimes the marketing blurbs are not always something you can stake your life on.  Maybe a more accurate description might read…does not add shine or gloss (it is very glossy in the jar…which I like…which also does not translate on how it will ultimately play out on the skin).  It is good for creating very lite weight products, and a big part of why I use it.

My progression as a formulator timeline looks something like this….

1) Starts with 165 cuz it is bulletproof.

2) Starts to think I am too big for my britches….so tries every  emulsifier known to man…. ULP and UPS beat a path to my rainforest door.

3)  Begin to realize how amazing and bullet proof 165 was.  

4)  Figure out how to blend 165 with some of the emulsifiers I found while chasing all those rabbits, into amazing but stable results.

5) Thank God I have a chemist buddy with the patience of Job, who can help me salvage (put together in a stable manner) any combination my mind can conjure.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Decision to buy a product is taken emotionally based of the first 10 seconds impression. I don’t think anyone will notice an effect after 2 hours.

Yes…I think smell and first impression are key.  But because of my personality….I still try to go the extra mile….and make it memorable…an hour or two down the road.

Cosmetic buyers are notorious for brand jumping… I would like to create something so memorable…that brand jumping would become heart wrenching.  

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monicakretschmers said:

Greensil from Greentech. It’s a sílica obtained from bamboo. 

Will any Silica do this?

I have some non-bamboo sourced silica from an experiment gone awry (aerosil 200).

What is a typical inclusion rate on this type of ingredient?

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Firstly…I take all my oils I want to include…and apply them neat….they simply have a huge range of shininess.  I like Meadowfoam…but it is pretty shiny…so sometimes I can’t use it depending on the application.

Some of the fatty alcohols are said to be more mattifying. 

Also some ingredients like Polymethylsilsesquioxane can help.

For my latest project…I think the addition of crosspolymers had the most profound influence on reducing some of the shine.

For me… Illipe is the least shiny of the butters I keep on hand.

Hope that helps.

[Graillotion]

I have worked through this recently…..
It would help if you listed the INCI of said product.

[Graillotion]

Pattsi said:

 

Since you have conditioner formula so I assume you have dimethicone 60,000 , you might want to try 350/60,000 - 1.8/0.2 and see if you like it or not, I like it.

I have never worked with D 60,000.  Are you saying that adding a dab (.02%) of this CST has some amazing feel/effect?

I only keep 350cst on hand.

But always open for some new powdered unicorn horn dust!