[Graillotion]

Ah…you missed the point on Spring Water…. It probably has half a dozen ingredients solubilized into it, beyond H 2 and O.  All kinds of minerals and who knows what you’ll have to chelate out of it.    (That ranks right up there…with tap water!)

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You might not understand industry.

1) Many of these mfg’s do not want their products in the hands of amateurs.  You would be wrong to think they want everyone to have their goods.

2) You can contact the re-packer of your choice….and they will list hundreds of ingredients that mfg’s will NOT sell them (even if they met MOQ)…because they know their end market.  On products that are on the edge…they will REQUIRE the re-packer to alter the name (that should shed some light on their attitude). 

3) I have several times contacted suppliers, and was willing to buy their MOQ, with the intention of selling off the bulk of it….ABSOLUTELY NO (most times).

4) If you look at INCI’s of some super big or premium brands…you will find things like emulsifiers…that they have exclusively.  No one at any level can buy it.  Meaning….they will sell an exclusive license to that producer if they can buy enough of it.

The industry does not intend on being all inclusive.  They have heavy pressure from the big companies that produce end product, to eliminate pop-up sellers from finding an easy way to compete with products they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars creating and testing.

You can not imagine the iterations I have gone through, chasing those ingredients…with lesser ingredients.

As a person from industry (granted a different one), I agree wholeheartedly with their approach.  When I was in industry, and had a superior product, I only wanted it in the hands of those that would make it shine.  In lesser hands, my superior product could be made to look bad.

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I just read the list of ingredients….every last one of them made me smile (the explanation after each item)….

let’s just look at one….

Spring Water hydrating

Doubt you’ll find too many chemists that would adulterate their product with that!  (Can you imagine the work it will take to return this into something like distilled or deionized water?)

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There was a thread a while back….that I thought was pretty revealing.  I’m not sure the topic…so I will try and summarize in a way that will answer your question.  (Maybe someone else will remember that thread and link it.)

Drugs are effective and regulated.  Once something typically becomes proven as effective, it becomes a drug.

Cosmetics are essentially not regulated.  Other than providing hydration, humectancy, barrier, and lubrication, cosmetics are generally NOT supposed to have magical powers (don’t confuse this statement with marketing claims you see).  If they do…they then become drugs.

So with this in mind…the mfg’s of cosmetic add ins…are generally having to prove the opposite….that their products are not amazingly effective, hence becoming a regulated drug.  Do NOT confuse this with the spin the marketing department will add.  They will lead you to believe their products grow hair, shave years off your looks, etc…etc.

I would also say…some well formulated cosmetics can actually enhance the health of skin, thereby providing better looking (healthier) skin.

I know this is a feeble explanation of what the original author said…but you get the general idea.  Cosmetic ingredients are only really proven to provide the aforementioned, barrier, humectant, and lubrication niches.  Anything beyond that…is a marketing department trying to sell product.  We use a lot of smoke and mirrors….as you advance you will learn all kinds of tricks for hiding wrinkles with optical blurring and other tricks…hehehe.  Did it remove wrinkles….NO…and sometime we can temporarily plump them…   Or stretch them tight for a short moment in time.

Don’t get me wrong….I am a firm believer that I can create magic via a cosmetic vector.  But this really takes a wizard of science and chemistry to help you, and this is the place to find those people (not meaning me)!  And the grand finale….wait for it… once you create cosmetic magic….you pretty much can’t claim that (legally)!!!  

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Good stuff…but makes things shiny…as it is just lip gloss.  

But I use it…at low rates…then mattify the heck out of it.

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SaraLee said:

 My source for GSC says to keep the pH above 5.5

I asked this question once myself.  The brains of this operation answered it in the following thread:

Glyceryl stearate citrate emulsifier and pH range. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

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Both are good. IMHO both better than BBerry.

However I do have one gripe with LC… They send every liquid in these little white bottles…..often which seems to have a little dirt sediment in the bottom corner.  I do not know if they get them that way from the mfg…or if they store them in a dusty warehouse for a while…and that dust/dirt sediment finds its way in there at that time.  But it seems to occur….about 75% of the time.

Never seen anything similar from MC.  I think price generally favors LC.

You have to understand…a lot of these repackers use the same suppliers….and you can usually figure it out….reading the attached documents and cross referencing with ULP.  There are of course difference…say with a natural oil.  Both might sell say a raspberry seed oil…one might be wonderful…the other unuseable due to color or scent….both being perfect examples of raspberry seed oil….only a matter of refinement.

So typically I buy the smallest amount from each…compare….and pick the one I prefer, going forward.

MC also sells most of their products on ETSY….and sometimes…depending on shipping….one will be cheaper than the other….so I always compare.

Another good couple would be:

Formulators sample shop
and
Essential Wholesale Labs

For EO’s…my top pick would be:

New Directions Aromatics (out of Canada)
They also have really good oils.

And oh….as I am always reminded…hehehe. Jedwards is also a good source (mainly oils).

Alas…I would be remiss if I did not mention my favorite butter supplier: 

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/

However…. they have recently been purchased by a company with down right HORRIBLE customer service…so not sure how things will be going forward.  As that company also sold butters…they may eliminate one of the supplers.  MYO was using the best in the world Danish butters from ICSC.

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I went through a serious pile of these when I started.  If you use the search bar on the forum… you can find many discussions on this very topic.  I do not formulate with ecocert in mind…so some of my comments might fall out of the realm of those parameters.

Yes… O 1000 is known as the soaping King….but some say depending what phase you add it too, this can have dramatic results in that regard (search forum, I have never used it).

Soaping is also a pretty easy fix….should you use an emulsifier that soaps (search the forum).

I found any of the ‘mulse’ products with sodium stearoyl lactylate, also tended to be a bit soapy.

As far as creating stability…you will be hard pressed to find a better combo with your non-ionics….than adding GSCitrate as a co-emulsifier.

A few suggestions….In your oil section…those are some heavy weights….I think it will be pretty hard to make this feel lite and absorbed?  I have often found that less is more….in this area.  And in the feel enhancers….I never really got things feeling amazing…without this area being near the 10% range.  Also no gelling agents???  Does ecocert preclude these?

Also pretty light on the humectants…was that the goal?

Finally… I think you should revisit the preservative/s…. Search the forum.  Why only 5.5 pH?  If you drop it below 5…it will significantly help your marginal preservation.  (And use lactic acid to drop it…your skin will thank you.)

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domicanica said:

I’m still a beginner so I don’t have any advice but something that stumped me especially in the beginning is, generally speaking HOW do you guys know how much of each ingredient to use (ie suggested usage rate might be 1-40% then i’ll see someone here say to use 2%), when to add it (ie some gums have to be slurried with glycerin, some have to be added before certain ingredients, some after). is this learned through experience, trial and error, manufacturer info, through courses, literature, like what?

Most of the time….the re-packers will increase the minimum use rate from the mfg data sheet.  

I actually get a lot of amusement, using ULP to back-track the re-packer ingredients.  Remember this….the mfg will generally list the minimum inclusion rate at a point where it will start to make a difference to a product it is added too.  The high end is where it starts to make a product gross or unsafe.

The re-packers on the other hand…only have the incentive for you to use the product faster, and re-order.  Therefore I tend to use most ingredients somewhere pretty close to the low end of the mfg’s recommendation…and NOT the re-packers info.  For the most part….Re-packer info if often very close to worthless.

Most of the problems I have self diagnosed….were solved by way of going to the mfg’s site…and reading all the data and procedures they had on file.  Again entering their sites via ULP…usually gives you full access.

As far as knowing use rates….that come with experience.  If you have a ULP membership…..go and read 30 formulas of products similar to what you want to make….and look at the inclusion rate….a pattern ALWAYS jumps out.  The other tip I might give….is make a simple solution with the ingredient in question…or apply it neat to your skin…the answer will become self evident.

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I am certainly not a pro….but a beginner whom has recently traversed the many pitfalls of beginning.

My biggest eye opener….was all the fake ingredients for sale!!!  My biggest piece of advice would be….buy from reputable sellers…. not ebay, Amazon, and ETSY…. (now in the same breath…not all of them are bad….just enough bad apples to ruin the barrel).

Also….even among reputable sellers…natural products such as oils…will have huge variations…not only vendor to vendor…but batch to batch.  This is to be expected from natural products.

And finally…and maybe most importantly….leave your baggage at the door…. Whatever you learned from the mommy blogger sites you cruised before arriving here….might need to be unlearned.   Have an open mind.  I thought I had a pretty open and science based mind…but I had to unlearn a number of things.

With nice mentoring…patience, and experimenting, one can go from novice to producing reasonably nice things is just a matter of a couple years!  Enjoy the journey….and make amazing friends along the way.

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I am no expert….but sounds like…. You are using a lot more Charcoal then they would in US formulas….where they just put a touch in…for claim (cudos).

Sounds like you might need to hydrate it…before formulating with it….so the morphing occurs before entering the final packaging.  Again…I am no expert!

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Pharma said:

Heike Käser uses mainly nautral, natural identical, or non-petrochemistry derived emulsifiers combined with waxes and fatty alcohols. Many of these show marked thickening over the course of 1-2 days post manufacturing. Depending on the emulsion type, re-homogenisation can actually improve stability and also tends to drop viscosity (the latter is from my personal observations).

@Pharma Is there a type of emulsion…that can be damaged with a secondary blast….say a lamellar structured emulsion?

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Without an ingredient list…we can only speculate mechanical or defective material damage…but I don’t think that was your question.  

You are asking if an ingredient (or combination of) did this?  If so…also include material that tube is made of.  The chemist cannot answer….without any clues.

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I get mine here:

Hexanediol CG (makingcosmetics.com)

As I am using it more as part of a preservative program…the added caprylyl glycol does not bother me.  Due to price…I think you should consider some alternatives as mentioned above.

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A formula always equals 100%….Both when putting it together, and at the end.  Therefore we add either a little extra water to begin with…say 10% (a good number) or we add it at cool down.  It would be a recipe…if the final product did not equal 100%  

Since I try to minimize adding large amounts post emulsion…I add 10% additional water to my formulas (at the beginning).  I lose at least that much as most of my formulas require 80C.

And yes….it is the water you are losing.

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What country do you live in?

Have you tried searching all the synonyms?

You sure you want that around your eyes?  

Any chance you are looking for:  1,2-hexanediol?

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chemicalmatt said:

@Zink Of the four attributes you’ve listed the emulsifier is a significant factor in only one: stability. For the other three, you are going to add builders to achieve better results (and you are experienced enough to already know that I suspect.)  As for emulsifier choice, I’ve never liked the APG family (Montanov) of “naturals” and found better results using the polyglyceryl esters. Co-emulsify with a small amount of anionic such as glyceryl stearate citrate or sodium stearoyl glutamate and you have a nice mild emulsion base without ETO-based nonionics. 

Even though I use some Montanov’s….they give me tons of grief!  Granted you may not want to use the PEG’s (165 type), that is where I get my best stability, supported with GSC.  Sometimes I will include a Montanov in that combo….for added texture to an already stable platform.

I have been doing this a little over two years now….and I have a sunny window….that I put samples in… I use a clear bottle…and fill them only half way….(want tons of head space to aggravate the situation).  I have a two year old sample sitting up there…that was just Tego Care PBS 6… (Polyglyceryl-6 Stearate (and) Polyglyceryl-6 Behenate), no co-emulsifier…and probably little or no fatty alcohol.  As time goes by…and emulsions break or fail…those samples get tossed….that one still remains.  (And the one listed below.)

Oddly enough ( I guess I say that…cuz Lecithin never instilled confidence in my mind….but the other two components shouldn’t surprise.)….the other one that has passed the torture test with flying colors…has been HelioFeel (Glyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin).

So….from someone that early on….with poor combinations (did not use co-emulsifiers or fatty alcohols) and little knowledge, two years ago….Those were standout emulsifiers.  Also early on…I tended to use any emulsifier at a very low rate.  So I think my tests…speak volumes for those two emulsifiers.

So Matt of course is spot on…I just thought I would give my personal experience, and some brand names you can try and find.

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Pharma said:

… silica … Bad thing is, they have a negative surface charge and will therefore adhere to the surfaces of the oil droplets killing the positive zeta potential of a cationic emulsion -> simply said, you’ll risk losing emulsion stability rather than gaining it.

Are you saying for the most part… silica is not used in cationic emulsions?

Or can low rates along the lines of 1% or less be included without much negative recourse?

Does the bamboo feedstock have any bearing in this regard?

If the cationic aspect of the emulsion is not the primary emulsifier, will this create some tolerance?  Aggravation? 

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RedCoast said:

Graillotion said:

I should get my silica tomorrow.  However I will have guests for the next week….so will not have a chance to play with it….for about 10 days.  

Noooooo! Can you sneak a little experiment or two? Just tell them it’ll only take 25 minutes!

You have never seen my formulas….hehehe….try two hours….start to finish!  

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RedCoast said:

@Graillotion I think silicas would be a good idea, based previous “mattifying” lotions I’ve used. All the best ones had silica in them, though I’m not sure from which supplier.

I should get my silica tomorrow.  However I will have guests for the next week….so will not have a chance to play with it….for about 10 days.  

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RedCoast said:

Can you get your hands on LexFeel Natural yet?

A cursory glance on the net….does not appear available in small quantities.

I did request a sample on ULP.

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jemolian said:

On the topic….OF using esters as moisturizers….just so I can tuck this into my data banks….what lite esters also do double duty….and do a little moisturizing on the side? 

@Graillotion maybe just on the additional moisturization side with data available for comparison. 

• Coco-Caprylate/Caprate - https://www.dropbox.com/s/d8i26333c578dm9/Liponate_CCC_2019B.pdf?dl=0
• Hydrogenated Polyisobutene - https://www.dropbox.com/s/8a6fl8nogfiiqv4/Panalane_SS_V.pdf?dl=0

Also Sensolene, not sure if you consider it lite but it broke me out over a few days. 

Thank you.  I am using both in the hand cream…so maybe I have that area maxed out already.  

I did have to take the level of Polyisobutene down to .6%, due to its shiny aspect…but I have plenty of other goodies helping out in that area.

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Abdullah said:

Have you tried Dimethicone/​Vinyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer?

Hehehe….that was the EXACT ingredient….causing the problem!

First….I am hyper sensitive to stuff…I feel everything… This goes on great….in formula…and even neat….but after 30 minutes…seems to have something residual I associate with drag.  Only occurred after this ingredient was added.

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helenhelen said:

@Graillotion I keep swinging between 1 and 1.5% illipe butter. The skin on my hands is so dry, it just soaks humectants and oil up and I literally never make fingerprints  . Before the pandemic when I actually took flights, the airport immigration officers would be puzzled by my lack of fingerprints on the machines and ask me to rub my fingers on my face then try again.

Hey….I came across something that really has me puzzled.  This oil….seems to lubricate skin at a crazy level…both in what feels like moisturizing…and durability….I mean hours….and hours….

https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/carrier-oils/tamanu-carrier-oil-virgin-vietnam.html

Now keep in mind…and you can check with @Pharma on this one….(it might be a nut oil).  But when I was kidding about making an industrial strength hand cream….this immediately came to mind.

Couple of notes….they sell several versions….and I have gotten I think 3….and this is the ONLY one that behaves in that manner.  It also has a reasonable amount of color and scent…(not awesome in my opinion…hehehe.)  I use this in a pain cream that has a VERY strong scent…so it does not come through. 

But if you are having trouble finding a natural oil…that seriously does something….worth a look.

Nothing super exciting in the fatty acid profile…just another Oleic on paper….but on the skin….hmmmn!

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On the topic….OF using esters as moisturizers….just so I can tuck this into my data banks….what lite esters also do double duty….and do a little moisturizing on the side? @Pharma (Not the crazy exotic stuff I can’t get….but ones I can get…hehehe.)