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EDTA is a chelator….so it does not have to be exactly EDTA, there are a number of options that do about the same thing.

A more natural approach to chelating would be things like GLDA or Sodium phytate.

But yes….chelates are very important, on multiple levels.

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Check the search bar.

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Never mind….I found it, along with episode #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7rIdimJZi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij2D209Y4K0

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justaerin said:

There’s a new one today! These are great!

For those of us that don’t know where to find this….can you include a link?  

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Awesome input.

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Farrukh said:

Tell me about the percentage of sodium metabisulfite to use in soap and others

I don’t make or work with soaps… So I do not know the rate for that type of product, however they are used at very low rates….

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Oh…totally spaced out on another one I use… @pma

Amino Acid n-acetyl cysteine, aka: NAC.

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Awesome to put a face with a name.  I have gotten some great tips from Matt in the past couple of years!

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@Perry, is it still legal to add Cholecalciferol to a cosmetic emulsion in the USA?  I can still find Vitamin D creams on Amazon and such.

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zetein said:

It was banned.

In the US?  I know it was in the EU.

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Search bar in upper right side of the screen works pretty well.

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Any fatty alcohol.

All will impart a different feel, so you’ll have to sample through them until you find one you like the best.

Also consider the polymeric emulsifiers…like Aristoflex AVC…they impart a gel undertone…that makes things feel good.

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BTW…you are missing some fundamental pieces of a basic formula.

You have no humectant….in reality…oils don’t moisturize…they only lubricate.  Humectants as an example would be …. glycerin, and many many other items.

You have very weak barrier function.  This is what holds the moisture in…once you establish it.  If you don’t build a fence to hold it in….it will be gone very quickly, and it will need to be reapplied hourly.  

This site has a search bar…..you can receive a full education here, buy just reading old threads….and it is FREE.

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Cut the butter by 5%
Tell us which oil….there are all kinds.
Sub some or all of the stearic for fatty alcohol (behenyl will give drier feel).
Add some IPM
Consider other emulsifiers…they all have their own feel.

Long and the short….if your formula feels greasy….it’s cuz you’re adding too much grease!

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domicanica said:

Thanks a lot, I’m really excited about using it in my lotions, everything I’ve heard about it is amazing. Thanks for telling me about pentylene glycol too. I was previously chasing the “wet feel” with jojoba because that’s how it feels neat but it just didn’t do it for me in the actual products.

Add 1-1.5% cyclomethicone…and it will also enhance that feel.

…And of course…use of a fast breaking polymeric….these all add up….to stunning!

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suswang8 said:

Does anyone know of any negatives (downsides) to using sucrose stearate (other than price and difficulty to find)? 

Not too hard to find:
Sucrose Stearate-EMF-SUSTE-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

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domicanica said:

thanks for the tip about pentylene glycol. you know, i think it’s you i saw on this forum talking about KW20… do you still enjoy using it in emulsions or have you found something better?

Still in love with it…. there aren’t many things in cosmetics…that you can keeping increasing the inclusion rate…and it generally just enhances the formula…without adding weight, stickiness, oiliness, or making the skin feel smothered.  
It is in every formula I make….and every formula…asks something different from it.  One formula…only asks for extension of EO’s.   (It is a mild fixative.)

And yes…  I also love pentylene G…makes my moisturizers feel sooo ‘wet’ when they go on.

I think there are a number on this forum that use it….and maybe we don’t tend to mention it much…because we kinda think…it is our secret weapon…hehehe.

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You can use other things besides glycerin… If you are using propanediol, or pentylene glycol, it also makes a good solvant for KW20….in fact Pentylene glycol is more effective than the glycerin.  I make my slurry…with any glycerin plus the  glycols.  The higher percentage of solvent, the quicker it goes into solution.

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Ooops…typo… Just read my first comment…. It should have read….I take all my formulas to 4.5 to 4.9.

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Graillotion 

I can only imagine what the SDS is for water. 

Well…I was half way kidding…. but I did find the SDS for water! 

Looks like California did not find it as posing a risk…so I guess we’re all OK.

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/89955.htm#:~:text=Deionized Water ACC%23 89955 Section 1,23751628%2C 25065%2C 57084%2C 57084A Synonyms%3A Company Identification%3A

If you spill it, follow these guidlines (per SDS):

General Information: Use proper personal protective equipment as indicated in Section 8.
Spills/Leaks: Absorb the liquid and scrub the area with detergent and water.

And if first aid is required (per SDS):

Eyes: If irritation develops, get medical aid.
Skin: Get medical aid if irritation develops or persists.
Ingestion: Get medical aid if irritation or symptoms occur.
Inhalation: Get medical aid if cough or other symptoms appear.
Notes to Physician: Treat symptomatically and supportively.

And last but not least….if you live in the EU:

Safety Phrases:
S 24/25 Avoid contact with skin and eyes.

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Mfg’s have to write SDS’s for the complete idiot.  They have no idea how someone will use their product….so they err to the cautious side.

I can only imagine what the SDS is for water. 

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Paprik said:

Agreed!…I take all my formulas (which include B3) to 5.5-5.9.  The sharpest chemist in the drawer…confirmed this was absolutely fine.  Granted I top out at 2%, and I believe that was under consideration with his recommendation.

You need a LOT of time, heat, and a strong acid to create a negative in this pH range.  See the blurb I pasted below:

The paper that I am referring to is called “Rate Studies on the Hydrolysis of Niacinamide” and they were using hydrochloric acid to perform the experiment in the acid region (which is all we care about here).  This is a significant detail as hydrochloric acid is a strong acid whereas AHA’s are weak acids.   Acid strength is not just about how much you put in a formula – 10%, 20%, 2% etc – it is also about how readily the acid let’s go of its hydrogen ion – its dissociation constant.  Strong acids completely dissociate in water meaning that even at low % concentrations the acid is quite potent. Weak acids have only a tiny part of themselves raring to go meaning that even at high concentrations they won’t be quite so aggressive.   The above study found that a 10% Niacinamide solution heated to around 89C and then taken to a pH of below 4.5 with a STRONG acid did start to hydrolyse and form Niacin and that this conversion was a first order reaction which basically means it went from Niacinamide to Niacin without turning into anything else first.  The study found that between pH 4.5-6 very little of this crazy game of shape shifting occurred.  In fact at pH 4.5 – 6 the half-life of the solution was found to be 1000 days which probably means that the average cosmetic formulator has little to worry about.

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vitalys said:

@Abdullah I assume 20% is too much for the moisturizing product. This high glycerin content will have opposite effect and the skin will become even drier. 

I think the confusion lies with using 100% Glycerin….where drying can occur.  I took the liberty of pasting a blurb from inci decoder, below:

Geeky Details

Glycerin doesn’t sound very glamorous but it is a real oldie but a goodie. It’s been used in cosmetics for more than  50 years and it’s a totally natural ingredient that’s also in the outermost layer of our skin (called stratum corneum - SC). 

It’s a so-called humectant type of moisturiser meaning that it helps our skin to cling onto water. A 2005 study has shown that glycerin levels correlate with skin hydration levels, so more glycerin means better hydrated skin.

As newer studies examine glycerin it turns out more and more that it’s not just a simple humectant but also does some other important things: 

•  It makes sure that the gooey stuff between the skin cells is neither too diluted nor too concentrated (it’s called osmoregulation)
• It helps to maintain the healthy state of the cell membranes and intracellular lipids (keeping the lipids in a nice liquid crystal state that is optimal for barrier function)
• It can normalize skin shedding in very dry skin. 
• It protects against skin irritation (such as washing your face too much and/or too aggressively)

What this all means is that glycerin is a real superstar and helps to maintain the healthy state of our skin in several ways. 

And there is even more. If your skin is severely dry, you have to read this. A large-scale study done with 394 guys and girls with dry skin compared two high-glycerin (containing 25% and 40% glycerin) moisturizers to 16 other popular moisturizers on the market (that had less than 6% glycerin). The two high-glycerin ones won hands down. They had superior, quick-acting hydrating properties and they also seemed to create a “reservoir” of moisture-holding ability in the skin. This means that even after not using the high-glycerin moisturizer the skin stayed hydrated longer compared to all the other low glycerin moisturizers. 

You might think now that this is sooo awsome I will go to the pharmacy right now buy some glycerin and put it on my face. Well, do not do that. 100% pure glycerin is not good for the skin either. Too much glycerin (and in general humectants) might attract water out of the lower layers of the skin. That’s a problem because once water is in the upper layer some of it will evaporate. It’s called trans-epidermal-water-loss (TEWL). If too much TEWL happens your skin becomes dry.  

This is confirmed by a study too: skin treated to 99.7% glycerin for 5 days showed that after the treatment the SC (do you remember? it’s the outermost layer of the skin) was not visibly different from the untreated control. The same study also examined skin treated with a 25% glycerin lotion and there the SC had a visibly different, expanded - in other words more hydrated - appearance. 

So the thing to know about the optimal amount of glycerin is this: it is an effective molecule already from 3% (even from 1%, at least when combined with skin lipids), and the benefits tend to increase up until 20-40%. Around 10%, glycerin seems to have a reals sweet spot in terms of effects and usability. This amount is still possible to formulate into a relatively light, non-sticky and not too heavy formula (yes, glycerin is sticky and high % is really hard to formulate into a cosmetically elegant formula) but 10% also shows all the great therapeutic effects including effective moisturization with a reservoir effect, protecting against irritation, maintaining a healthy skin barrier and making the skin just smooth and plump. 

So bottom line: glycerin is a real goodie and far more than a simple moisturizer. In our opinion, it is an underappreciated superstar that deserves more spotlight than it is currently getting

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Yes… SDS…is often used for an industrial accident.  You know…for emergency responders….or should a truck tip on the highway.

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.   

@g@Graillotion three ingredients that i thought you guys may recommend was isopropyl Myristate, isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil ????. There prices are also good. 

what benefits did you like about isopropyl Myristate and how do you compare it to isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil?

I do not use the latter two, so I can not compare them.  It is one of the few ingredients that promises a less oily/greasy feel…that for me…actually delivers on that promise.  (I would find it hard to imagine that coconut oil would deliver the dry feel that IPM can.)