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https://www.soapandthings.com/Cyclomethicone-silicone-liquid-1-gallon-7-pounds-aka-Cyclopentasiloxane_p_2219.html

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Leo said:

Can anyone get me any D5 at this time?

Well….you did say….ANY… 

LC995 Cyclomethicone | Lotioncrafter

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em88 said:

Pharma said:

He’s referring to triethyl citrate. It’s not an acid but a tripple ester of citric acid with ethanol. Once pH increases, it hydrolyses turning into citric acid. This in turn brings the pH back down (and also stopps hydrolysis).

w/o emulsions also have a pH which can (and will) drift when using enough urea. Unfortunately, there is no benefit from using this type of emulsion when it comes to stabilising urea. I tried making w/o emulsions with 40% urea… was fun but didn’t work out (emulsion instability, not chemical instability). Urea is the same b*+ç# as always and heavily interferes with HLB/HLD calculations/estimations and oil phase integrity/stability.

I have read a few articles about using triethyl citrate to stabilize urea. I would give it a shot. Do you have any suggestions regarding any ratio TEC/Urea?

Thank you

I use HydroVance…which is not exactly the same animal…The mfg formulas I found…were running .2 to .3%.  But TEC is a nice ingredient…and actually a nice emollient….so maybe a little more is better.  I have a delightful deo formula…and it uses a full 5% of TEC.

Aloha.

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So it looks like you are making a whitening cream.

May I ask the obvious question?  Why the heck did you put milk in there?

Secondly…do a knock-out test….make the same product without the milk….see what happens.  Report back.

I do not work with whitening ingredients…is there a reason your pH is smack dab in the middle of the bug zone? (Limited by an ingredient?) 

So first…get a chelate…as you need one.

I am assuming you added milk…for maybe lactic acid???  If so…just lower your pH by using lactic acid.  You’ll be able to advertise the same thing…and upgrade to a quality ingredient.

Aloha.

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Leo said:

Has anyone used the Cetiol in a shampoo? Would the Cetiol have any effect on the foaming qualities of a shampoo? What would Cetiol do to the feel of a shampoo?

Cetiol is a line of products…you will need to be a little more specific. 

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Pharma 

BTW at this late time of the day it’s ‘guete Abe’ .

Actually….depends on who’s timetable we used…. As you know….we are exactly opposites….hehehe….12 hours apart.

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Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…
I am typically using GLDA as my chelate…but also have sodium phytate on hand…. so could switch if need be.
…

Do not use phytate with silver (or any other metals). Phytate forms insoluble salts with most metals (in case of monovalent ones not chelates but that doesn’t change much).

Guete Morge

Thank you for your brilliance….you input is of immeasurable value.

Guet, merci

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Is it simply an emollient that falls somewhere between CCT and CCT…and very stable?

As someone once said….’a filler’?
 

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Leo said:

Can someone please provide a list of Cyclopentasiloxane ingredient suppliers?

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suswang8 said:

Well, now that you mention it, I did have one fundamental question:  how is it that the recommended dosing (roughly, 0.1%-0.5%) appears to be the same 

I think the reason for the range….is SP is used as more than just a chelate.  At the higher rates…they are touting a skin benefit.  

Aloha.

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PhilGeis said:

That is certianly one.  Also offers competition for other trace elements - Fe, Mg, CU.

Speaking of the metals….how about Silver?  Before you start swearing… I am using silver citrate at a low rate in a deo product, NOT as a preservative.

So I have read slightly conflicting thoughts amongst Phd’s on silver citrate in relationship to chelation.  So I was curious if you could weigh in on the topic.  One respected Phd basically said…without giving any details…. Silver Citrate and chelation don’t mix.  The other one….which I consider one of the most brilliant minds on the planet said this: Silver ions carry a single positive charge and, according to the HSAB system, are ‘soft acids’ which have a high preference for ‘soft bases’ such as thiols. Simply put, silver is a …. poor ligand for most chelates and will not interfere with GLDA or EDTA. These chelates may bind to the surface of colloidal silver particles but, unlike zinc, the effect isn’t strong enough to neutralise anything.

I am typically using GLDA as my chelate…but also have sodium phytate on hand…. so could switch if need be.

Aloha @PhilGeis  

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Pharma said:

The problem might be rose oxide, the main flavour component in essential rose oil. It has a very low scent threshold (one can already smell a ppb) coupled with it’s low concentration = it may for example evaporate to a degree even if the bottle seems hermetically sealed.

Store expensive EOs in the freezer.

Sorry…I should have been more clear.  
The scent only morphs…when included in a finished cream.

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localhost said:

Does it need to be in a typical deodorant container?  There is a company called pharmapump which sells airless vacuum dispensers that are pretty good.  They will send you out a sample if you ask. MOQ is 25 units at about $1 - 2 ea.

* https://www.pharmapump.com/ 

Thank you for the link.  I had actually gotten their samples before….for a different project (and their stuff was better than another sample I got).

I need to container to also do the spreading of the cream in the armpit….so one does not have to use their fingers.  Would like something like below: 

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Do you not have the water (and alcohol) to add?

Cheaper to buy the ingredient…and add your own water.  

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Pattsi said:

Amazon should have some seller carries these containers.
Aliexpress and alibaba defly have.

Will this type suitable for cream? wouldn’t ball type roll on be better? idk, let’s try.

Yes…there is one seller I have found on Amazon/ETSY/EBAY….probably all the same seller (and only offer the style I like the least).

Cost per unit is too high to get serious about…but maybe OK for samples.  I greatly disdain roll-ons…so that is not an option.  

Thank You

Product looks like this: 

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Cass2021 said:

This thread is making me really really want to try Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate. Anyone know of any other places to purchase this besides ULP? Somewhere with no MOQ ? Thanks in advance:)

Assuming you are in the US?

I was only able to get them from ULP.  Therefore I stayed with Isoamyl laurate, after making a formula with every possible combination…and just barely being able to detect a difference.

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Paprik said:

Niacinamide handles lower pH. (3.5 - 7.5)

Correct….that was just repeating mommy blogger lore (sometime mommy bloggers go to the next level…and become…..repackers…hehehe) ….no (applicable) science.  Mine all goes in at 4.8 pH.  And the word ‘stable’ was misused.  

(That lore came from an old study….high heat….1000 days….and a strong acid.  It is what happens when they read scientific papers…and don’t understand them…..and then they just all repeat what the ignorant one said.)

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Paprik said:

Perfectly said @Graillotion. 

To put it also in another way, imagine those things
Gum, polymer = net
Emulsifier = trap

So emulsifier traps all the oil droplets and prevents them from clumping back together. Where the gum net prevents those emulsified droplets from moving. So they stay put -> harder for them to clump again. This means you get the best stability. Some rheology modifiers (gum, polymers) are better, some worse. Some can stabilize bigger particles, some won’t stabilize those at all. 

So your formula should look similar to this for O/W emulsion:
Water
Humectant - preferably
Water compatible rheology modifier
Lipid
High HLB non-ionic emulsifier (preferable blend for better packing)
(Also good to have a little bit of anionic emulsifier, but if you’re using salt, no point)
Antioxidant (if required)
Chelating agent - preferably
Preservative
+ added extras, such as extracts, fragrance, actives etc … 

Even better said, @Paprik , but I might toss in a ‘barrier function’ to my list of pieces.  

Aloha.

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Learntounlearn said:

 If I use emulsifiers that add viscosity and then include additional fatty alcohols, do I still add any thickener for better stability of end product? If the total oil phase is at 10%

I am not sure I fully understand the question.  What thickeners are you referring to?  To me…water phase thickeners are gums and polymerics….oily phase thickeners are typically fatty alcohols and the likes.  So both groups will add stability.  Therefore I try and keep both in play….using just enough of each to reach desired viscosity, and inherently gaining stability.  Hope I hit what you were asking.

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OliveM 1000 tends to be a ‘soapy’ son of a gun….. and so is…including too much emulsifier.  Guessing rub in…is a little slow/difficult….or do you have lots of dimethicone?

The best replacement for most ingredients…is water.  

Without a posted formula…a little difficult to give input.

Are you adding your OliveM 1000, to the water phase or oil phase?

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BTW….here is a quick example of how to test your polymerics and electrolytes:

Just mix the water, the Sodium Lactate, and the polymeric….shear it together, (at the levels you will formulate at) and observe for 24 hours.

Mystery solved.  My genius mentor says… if there is an incompatibility…it will manifest itself very quickly.

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Well….here is how I would do it….
Zen is not electrolyte resistant…just more tolerant than the others.  With that much sodium lactate….I think you need to stick with the gums…. Try Solagum AX, as I think this one is a little less likely to have the ‘pilling’ effect.  I am not a gum fan….so I typically don’t ever add gums above .25%.
I think Aristoflex AVC give the best haptics…but is one of the most sensitive to the electrolytes, but I have done numerous experiments, and found I can do a blended humectant program with 1.5% sodium lactate, and a mix of others with no ill effect on the gelling.  So also consider lowering the Sodium lactate, and doing a polymeric/gum blend.
I always add my polymerics to the oil phase, before heating.  They just hang out there….doing nothing until the phases are combined.  I do not enjoy working with super thick water phases.  The .25% gum…will already make my water phase as thick as I want to deal with.
Texture and viscosity need to come from multiple angles…or you will get a very monolithic end product…. So you don’t want a huge amount of gelling agents if you want a cream gell.  Just enough to make the cream have something special.  I like to use cetyl esters blended with behenyl alcohol…this is where I feel I get the best creams.  Straight up cetyl for me…gives too unctuous a feel for a face cream…..ok for body and hand.
165 does not give as much viscosity as some of the others…consider adding 1% of Montanov 202 or (God forgive me) OliveM 1000 (M 68 can be subbed for OM 1000)….these will also increase the viscosity.  The latter will make it much heavier….and the former…much lighter.

Aloha. 

IMHO…HEC is just gross…and only used when it is about the only choice (cationics)….just my opinion.

Your Zen level…is also on the ‘about to be gross’ level.  At .5% and above…it gets a nasty jiggle to it.  But maybe the Sodium lactate broke your zen…so you did not notice.  Aristo and EMT 10 will not jiggle like jello at those levels.

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Paprik said:

Hello guys,

 after graduating. 

 

After graduating…. graduating from what?  Sounds like she graduated from one of those ‘online courses’ where they get a certificate of guaranteed incompetence.  

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Cafe33 said:

What finished product are you speaking about? Whipped butters?

That of course….and others.

So provide both answers.  

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DaveStone said:

I’ve used tons of moisturizers of the years.  I have “dehydrated” skin no matter how much liquid I consume. I don’t say “dry” because it doesn’t flake off. Anyhow, pretty much every moisturizer I’ve used has glycerin in it. I don’t know if it’s in small amounts, even if listed as the second or third ingredient. But almost none of them really worked great.

However, after introducing a 5-10% urea toner I made, my facial skin not only looks smoother and healthier, but is starting to appear that way even when not applied.

You sound like someone who could help me evaluate a face cream.  I am developing a multi-humectant cream…including urea.

I live in always above 90% humidity Hawaii…so some areas are hard for me to evaluate!

If interested….send me your mailing address… PM.

Aloha.