[Graillotion]

I did not realize TEC was added to deo formulas as an odor absorber.  Granted TEC is sooooo multi-functional.

Maybe a better question would have been….What does TEC do in deodorant, and (maybe) someone might be willing to show their cards.  

You did not list the rest of your ingredients….so based on the mention of beeswax…I am guessing you also have some ingredients which will directly conflict with TEC.

That is a very interesting concept, @chemicalmatt, fixating the stank!

Is your product anhydrous…or an emulsion?  Hard to have a TEC conversation without pH if it is an emulsion.

(Just my opinion)….but if your concept is to catch odors…than you have already lost the battle…(letting the bugs create the stank).  Why not get a step ahead…and prevent the bugs from making the stank?

[Graillotion]

You did not mention your other ingredients…but I am sure you are aware that it is VERY sensitive to electrolytes.  Really, it’s only drawback.  (Sometimes this (and pH) forces my hand…to use the jiggly ‘Zen’…hehehe, but keeping ‘Zen’ below .5% will make it play nice.)

[Graillotion]

As said above…it is helpful when comparing ingredients from different sources, when you are looking for something in particular.   

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I always use it in the oil phase.  It does NOT dissolve in oil, so no amount of stirring or time will alter the state in oil.  I view this as a HUGE advantage.  If mixed into the water phase, then you are working with pudding….I don’t like working with pudding.

I have found that over time, as the Aristoflex AVC I am using is repeatedly exposed to moist air, each time I open the bag….it does start to clump as a raw material.  But even this will process out, with time, and especially a second stir.  Using equipment that gives some shear, will also help with this.

All of my products are warm process.

There was no luck in your process, it was designed to perform in your situation….or many others.

Aloha

[Graillotion]

Maybe I hang with Pharma too much, but for me… Myrrh in everything, and Frankincense in most everything (NOT essential oils).  Myrrh even snuck into my latest deo product.  I make these extracts/oleoresins myself (per some Swiss guidance), to unsure efficacy and quality.  Bisabolol also in everything (including the deo).

[Graillotion]

Farnesol will become a distant memory.

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Pharma said:

The allergenic potential arises from the high degree of unsaturation, particularly the double bond in the 2,3 position with regard to the alcohol. Saturation removes all (in cosmetic quality maybe just most) those double bonds rendering the molecule to a branched fatty alcohol with about the same allergenic potential as those. As an educated guess, hexahydrofarnesol aka hydrogenated farnesol is likely not or only margianlly active against microbes and in the same pot as the emollient ‘iso-esters’ you’ve been researching.

Thank you, your brilliance is always welcome.  May many mac nuts find their way to Switzerland! (Last time I checked….some were on the way, along with some squalane wax and Himalayan Cedar EO  )

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Pattsi said:

Seeing theses flowers, Hibicus is (or maybe) potentially good for skin (?). There’re some studies on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis and most Korean konws Hibicus, let’s make some brews.

I knew you use silicone, so I mentioned natural-ish(?) ingredients 

Hehehe….it is my ‘natural way’ to finish a product:  with a kiss of dimethicone, a splash of cyclomethicone, and a dusting of Polymethylsilsesquioxane.

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion wow, thanks for that amazing resource, I went crazy and ordered about 50 different fragrance samples.

I found this link helpful with them…as it put all the descriptions into one place:

https://wellingtonfragrance.com/Fragrance-Descriptions.aspx

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion wow, thanks for that amazing resource, I went crazy and ordered about 50 different fragrance samples.

Hehe….if that was me….I would hope for 3 good scents.   I am just certifiable when it comes to fragrance.

I did get two good deo scents…out of I think about 18 I ordered this last round.  But I had some insight from a friend that used to work retail cosmetics.

Ended up with a Creed and Jo Malone knock off.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah

Ooops! … My comment did not post.  To answer your question:

“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”

Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?

Cost and availability to the small-time operator.  

What about zinc gluconate?

When I was in the zinc selection process…I sent my respected advisor a list of candidates.  Below is his response, I hope you find this helpful (keep in mind….the topic of discussion…is DEODORANT!).  So, his comments might be different in a general skincare context.

Yea, the (Sulfate) monohydrate is like ‘wet’ zinc sulfate. I’d go with that one.
If you want zinc in its free form (which is the one active against microbes), zinc sulfate is the way to go. Also, it’s an INCI ingredient (not sure whether or not the other forms are).
Zinc oxide is a different horse, don’t go with that one.
Zinc gluconate and citrate are weakly chelated… they may be okay for oral supplementation but come with a lower overall zinc content (large chelate molecules) and poor skin permeation. From what I can see, no benefit in cosmetics.
Zinc aspartate and glycinate are amino acid complexes, similar to zinc PCA. However, many commercial amino acid complexes are actually a blend of the amino acid with sulfate salts… depends on the supplier. Bulk supplements isn’t always too straightforward with the exact composition… If you want zinc in your skin instead of on your skin, zinc glycinate would be a good choice and has a higher % of zinc than other organic salts/complexes (zinc aspartate isn’t soluble, forget that one). Zinc picolinate is close to zinc PCA and probably the most stable complex (also most pH tolerant) though I’m not sure what higher amounts of picolinic acid would do to skin (picolinates are great for gastrointestinal absorption and likely show good skin penetration too).
Zinc orotate… too poor solubility, too low amount of overall zinc, and too pricey. I really don’t see any advantage of that one.
Hence, on the skin: zinc sulfate (quite heavily counts as electrolyte), in the skin: zinc glycinate (unless zinc picolinate is an INCI ingredient, both don’t count as electrolytes).

Do you mean topical by on skin and oral by in skin?

Oral means…consuming it for a benefit…  

Somethings just aren’t meant to be applied…  

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chemicalmatt said:

 Best alternate is rice starch 

Hey Matt…is the 3V rice starch, which is sourced from Italy…..actually a Risotto starch?

One of my brilliant advisors picked up on that Italian sourcing…and wondered if Risotto does not have a higher gelling temp (than typical rice).

[Graillotion]

In all fairness to the advisor…he was limited by a subset of choices that I provided.  His first choice (but not part of the subset) was Zinc PCA.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah

Ooops! … My comment did not post.  To answer your question:

“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”

Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?

Cost and availability to the small-time operator.  

What about zinc gluconate?

When I was in the zinc selection process…I sent my respected advisor a list of candidates.  Below is his response, I hope you find this helpful (keep in mind….the topic of discussion…is DEODORANT!).  So, his comments might be different in a general skincare context.

Yea, the (Sulfate) monohydrate is like ‘wet’ zinc sulfate. I’d go with that one.
If you want zinc in its free form (which is the one active against microbes), zinc sulfate is the way to go. Also, it’s an INCI ingredient (not sure whether or not the other forms are).
Zinc oxide is a different horse, don’t go with that one.
Zinc gluconate and citrate are weakly chelated… they may be okay for oral supplementation but come with a lower overall zinc content (large chelate molecules) and poor skin permeation. From what I can see, no benefit in cosmetics.
Zinc aspartate and glycinate are amino acid complexes, similar to zinc PCA. However, many commercial amino acid complexes are actually a blend of the amino acid with sulfate salts… depends on the supplier. Bulk supplements isn’t always too straightforward with the exact composition… If you want zinc in your skin instead of on your skin, zinc glycinate would be a good choice and has a higher % of zinc than other organic salts/complexes (zinc aspartate isn’t soluble, forget that one). Zinc picolinate is close to zinc PCA and probably the most stable complex (also most pH tolerant) though I’m not sure what higher amounts of picolinic acid would do to skin (picolinates are great for gastrointestinal absorption and likely show good skin penetration too).
Zinc orotate… too poor solubility, too low amount of overall zinc, and too pricey. I really don’t see any advantage of that one.
Hence, on the skin: zinc sulfate (quite heavily counts as electrolyte), in the skin: zinc glycinate (unless zinc picolinate is an INCI ingredient, both don’t count as electrolytes).

[Graillotion]

Bo77 said:

Graillotion said:

Pattsi said:

What about solid particles like starch, clay, mica, silica? - I don’t know, just throwing some thing in your basket.

You know…I generally finish all products with 

Polymethylsilsesquioxane

Maybe this is helping?  I chew on it for a few days.

Made these as well…they are all siblings…from the same seed pod.  50% related to the one above.

You created these flowers? You are talented. Praise where it’s due.    Very nice. 

Actually….no talent required….just patience and repetition.  A few other examples of my patience and repetition.

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Pattsi said:

What about solid particles like starch, clay, mica, silica? - I don’t know, just throwing some thing in your basket.

You know…I generally finish all products with 

Polymethylsilsesquioxane

Maybe this is helping?  I chew on it for a few days.

Made these as well…they are all siblings…from the same seed pod.  50% related to the one above.

[Graillotion]

Maybe my question was answered by Pharma, in a link he sent me via e-mail.  I will share it for other curious minds…that might want to know….hehehe….or maybe the rest of you….already knew.

Aloha

Gelatinization Temperatures and Why - BIABrewer.info

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Bo77 said:

Graillotion- I use GO almost in everything, too. And can say in the same manner also. I like to combine more ingredients in lower amounts and GO is one of them. Helping to stabilize, co em, but “re-fat” it too. Not necessary to emulsify, but it doesn’t hurt if it helps with it. I think we work similarly but on different feels, you go for dry faster feel, matte. I go more for rich, moist, not greasy and dewy lol. What I’m trying to say, I’m this small “perfectionist” where I can feel any tiny difference and it’s driving me crazy, seriously lol. My sis is laughing at me already. Yeah, and this .2% I know very well what you talking about  .

Are you officially bragging with your garden?  It’s just beautiful, seriously. I love nature. I’m more mountain type of preference, growing up not that far from where Pharma is, and far from your island. But your pictures are gorgeous, very peace inducing.  <3

Yeah….two peas in a pod.  Someday when Covid allows…I think I jump 1.5 ponds….and visit my Swiss friend.  

I do something else in my spare time….I breed flowers.  This is a first bloom of one of my new creations…just this week.

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GeorgeBenson said:

Is it normal for one type of fragrance oil to successfully solubilize into a surfactant blend, producing a beautifully clear shampoo, while an equal amount of a different fragrance will not and produces a hazy shampoo?

I seem to be having this issue now, what is it about certain oils that allow them to be solubilized when others wont?

I know one of the chemists on this site…likes Poly Suga®Mulse D9.  (I have not used it.)

I use triethyl citrate (for my EO’s).

Aloha.

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Has anyone come across Taro (Colocasia esculenta) starch?

A cursory glance….and I only find the flour.

(Even ULP just went….Huh???)   

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Don’t know the answer to your question…but just gonna toss this out there.  Someone in the know…. once whispered in my ear, that said acid is very incompatible with zinc.

Just a heads up when formulating with it.

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

 Forget the arrowroot too. (Don’t know how that trend got started.) Best alternate is rice starch, 

Ok @chemicalmatt, you dictated my whole evening to researching rice starch.  I learned:

It has the smallest particle size of the commonly used starches.
It is used as an adhesive in museums.
3V Sigma….sells rice starch… 
Rice starch is dang expensive….do you sell small (like 1 kg) MOQ?
A few other things…but that is what sticks in my mind at this late hour.

Would you be willing to elaborate on the rice starch, and what aspects make it a good (deo) choice?  Please also consider the deo product I am making is an emulsified cream….as stick products just inflame the heck out of my pits.

The concept is bug elimination, not malodor masking/trapping.

My initial thought of using arrowroot was more about haptics, than trying to be a drying agent.

Thank you in advance Matt, as many of your comments have made it into my formulas.

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Bo77 said:

Yep, works also. For some reason I can’t stand GSC, (everyone loves it here, I know and I apologize lol) even small amount ruins my formula sensory profile, no matter what else I put in it. But I like Glyceryl Oleate as co em. Low HLB, never had issues with soaping. Nothing what can’t be fixed. Also, Glyceryl oleate citrate, caprylic/capric triglyceride is great in small amount as co em. But it’s high HLB, anionic. It gives slightly rich, but not heavy feel. I can’t take any stearate I don’t know why, but even small amount and I feel “the drag”. Wondering why. Even it’s sound like nonsense, I know. I guess,I just prefer more “airy” products lol.

Funny how we each have different perceptions.  When I was evaluating co-emulsifiers, I was comparing GSC with Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate, and I felt like SSG ruined my textures, even at .2%   
However, I am working on a project right now, that was low enough pH, that it took me out of the GSC window…and I used SSG as the Co…..and I really really like the texture.
I also use GO in just about everything under the sun….but more for the re-fatting aspect…and less for what it is doing as an emulsifier.
Stearic acid….is also in my rear view mirror.

[Graillotion]

1. As far as a vast selection….these guys are hard to beat….with 500 choices. I was able to find some nice scents for my latest deo project with them.  They have a nice collection of knock-off colognes/perfumes.

Discount and Wholesale Fragrance Oils, Essential Oils, Massage Oils, and More @ Wellington Fragrance

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Mayday said:

What about Hydroxypropyl Cyclodextrin? Would this have any effect in a stick deodorant? (Hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin is a cyclic polysaccharide that is the deodorant ingredient in Febreeze, which traps VOCs within the ring structure).

With respect to baking soda, I thought the odor neutralizing effect was actually from its alkalinity— because odors tend to be acidic—but that is also the source of irritation potential.

I think if the focus of a deo is capturing the malodor after it has been created, it is like closing the barn door, after the cows have gotten out.

I think the worst possible scent in the world is, when you go into a bathroom after someone has destroyed it, and then they try and cover it with an aerosol fragrance.  No one is tricked.  I think creating a deo with this model…is like celebrating the ‘Emperors New Clothes’.

So, in deodorant, I think grand success can only be attained with the initial prevention of the malodor, not trying to trap or mask it after you allowed the bugs to create it.  For a stellar product, you must control the bugs and not allow them to produce the odor to begin with.

I have worked in conjunction with two chemists from this forum, to create a product, that I view as very effective, and the entire focus was on not allowing the bugs that cause malodor, a foothold in the armpit biome.  There is nothing in the formula that ‘catches’ stink.  Just things that make life rough on the pesky stink creators.

Aloha.