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Syl said:

In my experience, some vendors are not following shipping rules. When I buy lactic acid or sodium hydroxide in large quantities, some vendor will charge a hazmat fee, some do not.  

The new vendor went WAY out of their way to explain that this version of D5 could be shipped USPS (and it was selected for this reason) …and posted the flash point on the front page.  So I think in this case…. they are not in any type of violation…(which I would not care about anyway….I just can’t live without my D5…hehehe.).  I am just trying to figure out…how different D5’s…can have different flash points….my mind is not yet wrapping around the concept.

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chemicalmatt said:

IF you are  formulating with urea, DO NOT premix it, there is no need, it readily dissolves and is a weak electrolyte at best . Always add it directly to the batch during the cooling phase after heating/combining phases in an o/w emulsion for the same reason you state: it dissolves in water endothermically and will cool your batch as it dissolves. No ethanol is needed but a buffer is. Use lactic acid/sodium lactate at pH 5.5 - 6.0 or add rice starch, the more natural means of stabilizing urea.

I was tracking …. until you got to the rice starch.  Could you elaborate on that?  Mode of action….purpose…etc.  I am interested now…as I have a big pile of it.     (Since all my formulas use a kiss of starch, I will probably switch them all over to rice starch.)  I also have a number of formulas using HydroVance.  But I have always paired them up with triethyl citrate, and lowered pH with lactic acid…and is some formulas…also include sodium lactate.

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Pharma said:

@chemicalmatt Why are people so often promoting lactic acid / sodium lactate as a buffer for urea? It’s no longer buffering at that pH range, let alone preventing the product from a rise in pH which is the main issue with urea.

What are you suggesting as an alternative @Pharma ?  Triethyl citrate?  Or, none needed?  (After lowering pH with lactic acid… 4.8 to 5.2 range generally.)

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion I am the same way - out of these 50 samples I’ll be happy if I can come away with one good one. I usually combine 2-4 and make a custom blend. 

Did you get anything good?

I sent you PM.

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And some of us….use both.  

I use a low rate upon arrival….and then the same low rate…at time of formulation.

I also refrigerate all my oils…. but I’m a little nuts.

Some oils, like meadowfoam and Jojoba liquid wax…I just don’t bother with.

Aloha.

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Listing the country you live in…always helps.

As far as beakers, Pyrex off of Amazon is hard to beat.

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I would like to thank all the genius minds that have contributed to this project, you know who you are!  Sometimes it takes a village, to make something special.  I have a good sense on how to create texture/haptics…but there are so many other aspects!!!

Vitaly, you have simply been brilliant in making the product function!  Aloha.

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A lot of the information I get, is sent directly to me…and some of this material is absolute pearls of wisdom from genius minds.  I would like to share the ramblings of one such genius:

My guess (I don’t know!) would be that behenyl results in a drier feeling product and MM in a softer one which probably absorbs better (with the end result being drier because no longer there, if you know what I mean).
From a logical point of view: 165 might play better with MM with regard to forming a lamellar network. 165 tends to weaken or even destroy the lamellar network of the Montanovs and MM alongside the laurates might actually fix that issue. At least hypothetically…
On the other hand, lauryl laurate is fairly similar to MM and including both might be redundant. Maybe just let it be and play with some other ingredients if you’re not happy with the dryness of the outcome? I doubt that adding a wax ester or a fatty alcohol will counteract the non-dry feeling of slip and slide ingredients. Quite the opposite; they might actually disturb their fast resorption which, as stated in the beginning, would be another form of dry feeling. Cut down on occlusive lipids, reduce overall lipid load and get the lost viscosity back by increasing starches and gelling agents.

If only my mind thought like this….what I could accomplish.  Thank You (Danke Danke schoen Danke vielmal Danke/merci)

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For those following along at home, an update.  (Please understand all that I will say falls under the auspices of ‘formula specific’.)  So, I made the same formula, subbing the behenyl alcohol with the same amount of Myristyl Myristate.  As I was chasing a dry application and powdery after feel (from a cream), it was a ‘no contest’, clear winner.  Myristyl Myristate kicked the arsh of Behenyl in making a dry finish, quicker absorbing feeling deo cream.

(Note: This ingredient only made up 1.15% of the formula yet had a palpable result change.)

I did however lose a noticeable amount of viscosity, so will have to increase the MM to match the desired viscosity.

Sidebar: Per a recommendation from Matt, I switched from Arrowroot to Rice Starch, and there was a detectable enhancement of the haptics.

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Matt @chemicalmatt , my add in fatty alcohol level is only 1.15% to get the viscosity I want (CP at 1.8%).  So not much to hold things back.  Slippery stuff  above 17%.

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Thank you @Abdullah and @chemicalmatt !  I always pair my Montanov emulsions with a 165 type emulsifier (and an anionic).  I also always use a polymeric, a dusting of Solagum AX and a kiss of Glycerol oleate (more for the refatting).

Matt, the formula has lots…and lots of slip and slides (can you say… ‘laurates’…. my good friends lauryl and isoamyl…hehehe)….the poorest of which is CCT, and finished with my fav….a big kiss of cyclopentasiloxane (and two other silicone friends).  I did sub in the rice starch, and was able to achieve a nominal enhancement over the arrowroot.

I will make the deo cream later today using MM in place of the behenyl, and get it out to the test groups this weekend.

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Does a blend of MM and Behenyl…create something drier than using one or the other?

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Add a little heat to the water phase…and I think your allantoin will go right in….as long as you do not exceed the rate it can contain.  You should be able to then let it cool, and it will stay (again…as long as you did not exceed the rate it can hold…If I recall correctly, .56% of the water).

I have been working on a non-irritating deo cream….with soothers….and I used the above two mentioned items…and Betaine…is another to consider, and it has come out as nice as I had hoped.

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Dtdang said:

Paprik!  I use pH meter to measure the pH of hempseed oil directly after calibrate pH meter.
Retinol is soluble in oils and it takes about 25 minutes to soluble in oils. The final pH of oil phase is 4.0. After oil & water phase are emulsified, pH of the cream is 5.0.
My question: during 25 minutes retinol is in the pH of 4.00, retinol is still good or bad ? because it is stable with pH = {4.5, 8}

Thank Paprik.

Your pH meter does not have an option…to NOT give a reading…. So it just spits something out.

Just wave it around in the air….and you’ll get the pH of air. 

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I did not realize TEC was added to deo formulas as an odor absorber.  Granted TEC is sooooo multi-functional.

Maybe a better question would have been….What does TEC do in deodorant, and (maybe) someone might be willing to show their cards.  

You did not list the rest of your ingredients….so based on the mention of beeswax…I am guessing you also have some ingredients which will directly conflict with TEC.

That is a very interesting concept, @chemicalmatt, fixating the stank!

Is your product anhydrous…or an emulsion?  Hard to have a TEC conversation without pH if it is an emulsion.

(Just my opinion)….but if your concept is to catch odors…than you have already lost the battle…(letting the bugs create the stank).  Why not get a step ahead…and prevent the bugs from making the stank?

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You did not mention your other ingredients…but I am sure you are aware that it is VERY sensitive to electrolytes.  Really, it’s only drawback.  (Sometimes this (and pH) forces my hand…to use the jiggly ‘Zen’…hehehe, but keeping ‘Zen’ below .5% will make it play nice.)

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As said above…it is helpful when comparing ingredients from different sources, when you are looking for something in particular.   

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I always use it in the oil phase.  It does NOT dissolve in oil, so no amount of stirring or time will alter the state in oil.  I view this as a HUGE advantage.  If mixed into the water phase, then you are working with pudding….I don’t like working with pudding.

I have found that over time, as the Aristoflex AVC I am using is repeatedly exposed to moist air, each time I open the bag….it does start to clump as a raw material.  But even this will process out, with time, and especially a second stir.  Using equipment that gives some shear, will also help with this.

All of my products are warm process.

There was no luck in your process, it was designed to perform in your situation….or many others.

Aloha

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Maybe I hang with Pharma too much, but for me… Myrrh in everything, and Frankincense in most everything (NOT essential oils).  Myrrh even snuck into my latest deo product.  I make these extracts/oleoresins myself (per some Swiss guidance), to unsure efficacy and quality.  Bisabolol also in everything (including the deo).

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Farnesol will become a distant memory.

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Pharma said:

The allergenic potential arises from the high degree of unsaturation, particularly the double bond in the 2,3 position with regard to the alcohol. Saturation removes all (in cosmetic quality maybe just most) those double bonds rendering the molecule to a branched fatty alcohol with about the same allergenic potential as those. As an educated guess, hexahydrofarnesol aka hydrogenated farnesol is likely not or only margianlly active against microbes and in the same pot as the emollient ‘iso-esters’ you’ve been researching.

Thank you, your brilliance is always welcome.  May many mac nuts find their way to Switzerland! (Last time I checked….some were on the way, along with some squalane wax and Himalayan Cedar EO  )

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Pattsi said:

Seeing theses flowers, Hibicus is (or maybe) potentially good for skin (?). There’re some studies on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis and most Korean konws Hibicus, let’s make some brews.

I knew you use silicone, so I mentioned natural-ish(?) ingredients 

Hehehe….it is my ‘natural way’ to finish a product:  with a kiss of dimethicone, a splash of cyclomethicone, and a dusting of Polymethylsilsesquioxane.

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion wow, thanks for that amazing resource, I went crazy and ordered about 50 different fragrance samples.

I found this link helpful with them…as it put all the descriptions into one place:

https://wellingtonfragrance.com/Fragrance-Descriptions.aspx

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion wow, thanks for that amazing resource, I went crazy and ordered about 50 different fragrance samples.

Hehe….if that was me….I would hope for 3 good scents.   I am just certifiable when it comes to fragrance.

I did get two good deo scents…out of I think about 18 I ordered this last round.  But I had some insight from a friend that used to work retail cosmetics.

Ended up with a Creed and Jo Malone knock off.

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah

Ooops! … My comment did not post.  To answer your question:

“So will there be any effect that zinc PCA or sodium PCA has?”

Let’s assume you mix 50/50 Zn Sulfate and Na PCA … Yes, but why not just use 1/2 the amount of ZnPCA and not have to combine two separate ingredients when you don’t get to list ZnPCA on your ingredient list?

Cost and availability to the small-time operator.  

What about zinc gluconate?

When I was in the zinc selection process…I sent my respected advisor a list of candidates.  Below is his response, I hope you find this helpful (keep in mind….the topic of discussion…is DEODORANT!).  So, his comments might be different in a general skincare context.

Yea, the (Sulfate) monohydrate is like ‘wet’ zinc sulfate. I’d go with that one.
If you want zinc in its free form (which is the one active against microbes), zinc sulfate is the way to go. Also, it’s an INCI ingredient (not sure whether or not the other forms are).
Zinc oxide is a different horse, don’t go with that one.
Zinc gluconate and citrate are weakly chelated… they may be okay for oral supplementation but come with a lower overall zinc content (large chelate molecules) and poor skin permeation. From what I can see, no benefit in cosmetics.
Zinc aspartate and glycinate are amino acid complexes, similar to zinc PCA. However, many commercial amino acid complexes are actually a blend of the amino acid with sulfate salts… depends on the supplier. Bulk supplements isn’t always too straightforward with the exact composition… If you want zinc in your skin instead of on your skin, zinc glycinate would be a good choice and has a higher % of zinc than other organic salts/complexes (zinc aspartate isn’t soluble, forget that one). Zinc picolinate is close to zinc PCA and probably the most stable complex (also most pH tolerant) though I’m not sure what higher amounts of picolinic acid would do to skin (picolinates are great for gastrointestinal absorption and likely show good skin penetration too).
Zinc orotate… too poor solubility, too low amount of overall zinc, and too pricey. I really don’t see any advantage of that one.
Hence, on the skin: zinc sulfate (quite heavily counts as electrolyte), in the skin: zinc glycinate (unless zinc picolinate is an INCI ingredient, both don’t count as electrolytes).

Do you mean topical by on skin and oral by in skin?

Oral means…consuming it for a benefit…  

Somethings just aren’t meant to be applied…