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Just guessing…but they probably purchased it that way from a supplier.  So came as a blend.  And the supplier led them to believe the radish root was preserving it (the blend)?

Are there any other ingredients that are common is all the formulas?

Just a guess.

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Confused…

Is that two separate pairings….

or

You will use all 4 items together?

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Squinny said:

Thanks very much for that Mark appreciate your help and time and the info on where to source the Deo active - I will look into. Have to see what exchange rates are and shipping costs though which is why I tend to buy mostly in Australia (where I am). The Ethanol I can buy here is this : Alcohol, Aqua (Water) , 0.25% Tertiary Butanol [Denaturant: To conform with Australian Taxation Office - Excise requirements] - would that be ok to use?

That Evonic add in….is called dermosoft decalact deo.

It is now sold in the US, at Formulators sample shop.

Just go to the liquor store, and ask for Everclear….or a generic version of it.

dermosoft® decalact deo MB | Evonik Dr. Straetmans GmbH (dr-straetmans.de)

Note: The TEC level in there is microscopic, not the levels we have preciously discussed.

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I’ll probably be redundant with some of the above comments…but here goes.

Why does it lack emollience?  It lacks emollients.  Good emollients have names like isoamyl laurate, laurel laurate, IPM, etc…. I don’t see those in your formula.  There are secondary ones that help… like maybe cetyl palmitate etc.

What does it not fully moisturize?  You only have glycerol working towards that end.  Not all on this forum will agree, but I have found a team of humectants works much better than a single member.  If cost is the only measure of success, then you are on the right path.  So, I would certainly look at adding some team members like propanediol, betaine, urea (especially), sodium lactate, sodium PCA, or many other possible choices.  Every humectant works in a slightly different manner and excels at different humidity levels.  If you have not researched that to the nth degree and determined that only glycerol works in your climate with your skin…then add to the team.

I can’t imagine the words eczema and dimethicone not being in the same sentence…where is yours?

I like colloidal oatmeal…just make sure your preservative is the best of the best….cuz every bug in the world likes that stuff.

And OMG…knock the formula down to 150 grams, until you have it nailed.  

I get the impression you think oils are magical?  They lubricate (NOT the same as moisturize) the skin, and not a whole lot more.  The rest of the build is actually the important aspects.  Humectants and barrier should be more the focus.

If you want to know if the Niacinamide irritates….just mix some in water…and apply to the same select spot for a few days….and you’ll have your answer.

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Opti plus is very pH sensitive (to get the full benefit).  (see the last word in the INCI)

You did NOT mention your pH….which would be critical.

Please also list all other ‘hurdle’ ingredients in the formula.

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ggpetrov said:

Also I’d like to mention that i’ve read somewhere that the high shear mixing / homogenisation have a negative impact to the Xanthan gum gels.

Now I’d like to ask a question about the Carbomers and their high-shear stress resistance. According to this publication: https://realizebeauty.wordpress.com/2022/04/04/carbomer-chemistry-high-speed-mixing-homogenising/

There is a serious risk of damaging of the polymer chains. This damage manifests as a non-recoverable loss of viscosity – so the end gel or product is thinner than it otherwise could be.

As far as i understand this is applicable only for the pre neutralized carbomers and/or those who doesn’t need a neutralisation. Because once the polymer has create it’s own chains, every high shear force will have a negative impact on it.

And still, when I incorporate the sodium carbomer in my lotions at 40 degrees, can I use my homogeniser for a couple of seconds to spread the carbomer more evenly, off course at the lowest speed?

Just do as someone mentioned above….test it.

Here is what I do…. strip away the formula…it will only confuse you.

Take the correct amount of water the formula would have….and the correct amount of gum/carbomer/polymeric…whatever you want to test.  And mix these two sole ingredients.  Hit with as much shear as you think you will use, were you to make the entire formula.

You have your answer.  And I think you will find the result will be as @chemicalmatt has suggested…. no problem.  It always has been for me.

Sometimes you’ll find the brilliance in simplicity. 

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Here is the 2nd Google listing:

Emulsifiers with HLB Values (theherbarie.com)

Oh sorry…I forgot I don’t use Google.  I use ‘Bing’.

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Absolutely the first google entry it listed.  What Google are you using?

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PM = Private message.

At the top of the screen…there is a menu bar… Click on ‘Inbox’ and you can message people in the forum directly.

Aloha.

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Squinny said:

Hi Graillotion so do you have a formula /list of ingredients you recommend? And would like a formula that isnt irritating but effective at preventing odor to begin with. What is the ideal pH then for underarm use deo to stop odor and not be irritating? I want a spray not cream or stick if possible? I am happy to make an emulsion and more like a lotion if that works better. I am only making for my own use ( for fun with benefits!). Cheers

When I make deo, I target 4.4.  However, my advisors have suggested I can go much lower.  However, when down around 3.8…. I did get an occasional tester that felt irritation.  At 4.4, the bugs are hating life, and I get no irritation.

You can send me a pm, regarding potential ingredients.

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When making a deo, you must have a detailed plan before you start, then pick the ingredients that match your plan.

So as an example….high pH (Yuck), you pick things that fit that format.  Low pH (and your pits say….ahhhh) you pick from a different grouping of ingredients.

Some will pick to prevent the bacteria from producing odor to begin with (good idea), and some will think…if only I can trap the stink, before it reaches someone else’s nose (hmmmn…is that really a viable plan).  And you pick ingredients accordingly.

So make your plan….then you choose ingredients that match your plan, not a hap-hazard shopping spree at the re-packer.

Enjoy the journey.

Oh…and take the pH much lower.

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suswang8 said:

A sales rep told me 90 seconds was a safe runtime, but I would imagine it depends on the viscosity.

Also, I thought this device was known for introducing a bit more air than is ideal, but I am not sure.

I run mine for a timed 2 minutes upon combining phases, and yes it will get warm, but the machine is designed for that.  I also use it on and off while working with the aqueous phase, as I tend to use a lot of powders, and throughout the pH adjusting process in the aqueous phase.

Regarding introducing air…that would be 100% user error.  Proper beaker shape, and keeping the head submerged, and no human error, this device will not introduce air, other than if you accidently create a vortex down to the level of the vents.

My comments are based on the emulsifying head, as stick blender heads are well known for creating messes.

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chemicalmatt said:

Here’s a hack for allantoin solvation: urea greatly increases allantoin solubility in water. Add them both: one a skin protectant the other a skin softener.

@chemicalmatt I use a slightly different version of urea, HydroVance, aka: Hydroxyethyl Urea.  Would you say this hack works with this as well?

I guess the next logical question would be, is there any (proven) benefit, taking allantoin higher than .5%?

Aloha.

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Oh…the other thing that separates the Dynamic from many others….and something I find INCREDIBLY  useful…it has infinitely adjustable speed….from 1 rpm….on up.  A lot of other options in this category, does not have the precise adjustability….which you will eventually find….critical.

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This is what you want to end up with.  You can check pricing…piecing it together.

Dynamic MiniPro MX069.1 Blender/ Homogenizer, 6.5, 115V Commercial Food Blenders - BakeDeco.Com

Dynamic AC560 7 1/2″ Blender Tool for MiniPro Mixer (katom.com)

Dynamic MX070.13 4 qt Immersion Blender w/ Variable Speed Motor, 115v (katom.com)

Dynamic MX070.13 Black/White Handheld Mixer, Used Excellent Condition General Food Preparation - BakeDeco.Com

Most of these places will give you 10% off your first purchase…is you sign up for their e-mail newsletter.

Enjoy the beast…and trust me…… buy the good one right out of the gate, instead of buying something lesser, then having to buy the good one a month or two down the road (cheaper buying just one, instead of two).

Aloha

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Dynamix is the way to go…for a few hundred dollars.  But be sure to get the emulsifying head, as that is one of the more important aspects.  You can save a lot of $$$, by buying them as a package up front.

When I am formulating, I typically make 150 gram batches, and that head fits perfectly in a (narrow) tall form 250 gram beaker.

I’ll see if I can find the link…for that combo, and send it on, later.

Nothing else in the ‘stick blender world’ comes remotely close.  And just beastly quality.

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PhilGeis said:

HBO wouldn’t air it if it wasn’t a hit piece.

I suspected as much…but I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt…at least once.  

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@Perry or others, I have seen the reference to the HBO documentary several times now.  I am completely unfamiliar with what they said, or the premise.

Is this something that is horrible misinformation and media spin… or is this something that is well done and accurate?

Also…I do not have TV of any kind…(sorry, gathering knowledge takes precedent over entertainment)… is there another format I can view this?  Amazon Prime, YouTube….etc???

I would like to view it…no matter which category it falls into.

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GeorgeBenson said:

The other issue im having with my blue tansy oil is that even at tiny amounts the smell is way too strong. I still want the cream to end up slightly blue but i cant do that without it being overpowered by the tansy smell. An ideal blue tansy oil would be one that is just as blue but not as aromatic. I will try ordering some from new directions and see if it works better for me.

Hard for me to comment on the smell, as the pain cream I am adding it to, already has a profound smell.  I will tell you this, I don’t use much of it.  I typically make 180 gram batches, and I add 7-8 drops while hand stirring, until the color is where I want it.  I then put the product in a dark blue glass jar, which further accentuates the blue color.

As far as adding a secondary AntiOx, I would sure look at ROE.  If you are ordering from NDA…I think they even carry ROE.  Use in in conjunction with MT E.  (I also get my mixed T E, from NDA.)

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I would love to see a small ‘barrier to entry’ for individuals seeking to sell cosmetic products to the public.  I think (do not know) that the EU has some kind of minimal testing, and ingredient review for individuals looking to sell to the public.

As someone that interacts with the beginners… it just absolutely instills ‘shock and awe’ in me…of what they want to sell.

How many times have I heard this… “I made my first emulsion this week, it is not stable and beginning to mold, but I really like it, and want to start selling it next week.”   No exaggeration…this type of statement is very common.

The public deserves to be protected from this.

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I use blue tansy as a colorant in one of my main products….never had this issue.

Are you using containers that don’t allow light?

Are you buying the BT from a reputable source, like New Directions Aromatics?

What is your AntiOx program?

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Cost.

All though, my chemist suggested to me, that lactic is more skin friendly.

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Karo_lina said:

Abdullah said:

Yes it is completely safe. 

What are the ingredients?

so, won’t you have irritated and reddened skin after using a cosmetic with a pH of 3.5, twice a day for half a year?

I have a daily use cream deo…that was tested at 3.8 for a while.   Most people this was no issue.  I did have a single subject where this did cause mild irritation.  When I took the formula to 4.4, no one experienced any irritation.

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I understand industry standards are using demineralized/deionized water PLUS a chelate.  Trying to understand why.  Now I would assume part of this would be any other water-based ingredients that might come to the show… but there are plenty that do not have much more than just water in the liquid portion of the aqueous phase.