[Graillotion]

Yes, I would throw out anything with a Geogard preservative! How did you expect to cover Gram negative bacteria?

The poor job that Geogard preservatives do on the other aspects of the formula, are very pH dependent, and you did not even mention pH??? Above a pH of 5.5, the product isn’t doing much on the Gram +, and YMF.

Just because other beginners use poor preservation, does not mean you should follow the herd. Consider the health of your customers, and family.

This link… might be a good place to start, not written by beginners.

Preservative Reviews - (makingskincare.com)

makingskincare.com

Preservative Reviews -

PreservativesAll you need to know!Learn how to preserve effectivelyCommon strategies chemists use to pass preservative testsPreservative free?True or false? Previous Next Free, online skincare formulation course from Chemists Corner, Swiftcraftymonkey and Making Skincare.As a first step to making your own … Continue reading

[Graillotion]

You should understand that very clever language is used to manipulate those without the science backgrounds…. everything down to the worst of the worst….will use meaningless terms like ‘broad spectrum’. I cannot think of two more meaningless words in cosmetics!

I have seen the method that beginners use to select their preservation systems…. They will …. wait for it …. survey other beginners on what to use. Do you see any concerns with that?

[Graillotion]

A little confused with the question…..unless you are being name-brand specific.

Posting your country….is always of value, on Q’s like this.

• This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

I don’t buy ingredients from Amazon….but thought this was funny.

Amazon.com: Artekas Innovation - CAPRYLYL CAPRYLATE/CAPRATE - Liquid - Cosmetic Grade - Emollient - for Homemade Sensative Skin, Body, Face, Baby Care - 3.52 Oz : Beauty & Personal Care

[Graillotion]

Is that something different than was is typically called ‘Bay rum’ fragrance? Everyone sells it.

Bay Rum Fragrance Oil – Wellington Fragrance

• This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

wellingtonfragrance.com

Bay Rum Fragrance Oil

The traditional mans fragrance, similar to Old Spice. Invigorating and masculine, with spice notes. Top: Apple, Orange, Cinnamon Leaf, AllspiceMiddle: Dark Rum, Bay, Clove BudBottom: Benzoin Resin, Patchouli, Tonka, Vanilla, Musk

[Graillotion]

I am having a little trouble following the timeline. But it sounds a little like a phase inversion (for lack of details). This occurs when an emulsion tries to first become a W/O instead of O/W. They manifest as being very thick at first. Typically once you reach a certain point that breaks…and tries to return to O/W which is typically far less viscous.

Again… without a detailed description of what is happening at what point in time… I could be way off.

[Graillotion]

As mentioned above….. the water is hidden not only in the first ingredient, but in the second as well.

FYI in commercial formulas….the HA is NO WHERE NEAR the 1% line.

Many times, the HA is made in advance….as it takes 24 hours to fully hydrate….so it just makes sense. This is also an opportunity to introduce the real preservative to the formula….as the one listed simply won’t do the job. ???? (Don’t ask for further clarification… ???? )

So, I am not aware of any regulation that says what percentage of water your HA slurry contains…. hence….I’m guessing….. AS MUCH AS THEY WANT. (Granted….correct INCI format would have you place it where the actual ingredient would fall (well….well…below 1% line) vs how much of the hydrated product you included.)

All in all….not a formula I would even attempt to learn from.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

That does not sound like a formula for a cream.

Maybe, a little background before you get started…. you know….walk before you run?

This site offers a free introduction, and possibly some of your questions might be answered there, if you will invest the time in a FREE course.

Aloha

Start Here - Chemists Corner

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Graillotion.

chemistscorner.com

Start Here - Chemists Corner

Chemists Corner is a website about cosmetic science that will help you become a cosmetic chemist and formulator of beauty products.

[Graillotion]

First …Not my area. ????

Second… surprised I did not see hexyl resorcinol on the list…. granted you listed two things by brand name….(not helpful).

When looking at a new venture…I always like to hear what George has to say on the topic….even if he is just regurgitating from dubious papers. ????

Good luck.

Developing Skin-Lightening Products (ulprospector.com)

ulprospector.com

Developing Skin-Lightening Products

Skin lightening refers to the ability of a product to reduce hyper-pigmented areas or spots on the skin. These products, also referred to as skin-whiteners, bri

[Graillotion]

For interactions…. keep your cationics and anionics for the most part…. apart from each other.

Preservatives that use an organic acid, pretty much need to be formulated at 5.5 or below to have any efficacy…NO MATTER WHAT THE BS MARKETING MATERIAL SAYS.

[Graillotion]

I worked myself up from the bottom over the last 7 years. I have also contributed to some beginner sites, and see the pitfalls they tend to fall into.

• The errors most beginners make can be summed up as follows:

• Use WAY TOO MUCH GREASE (oils and butters). A little goes a long way….and more is always worse…not better. (What ever you think is right…cut it by 50%….and you’ll already be a better formulator.

• They rarely use enough emollient/esters….what makes good commercial stuff good….is the emollient/ester cascade. (And a fast-break polymeric is nothing to sneeze at.)

• Believe the plant extracts actually do something. They don’t. They just add to the preservation burden. You include them at .1% and market the crap out of them….but not much more.

• Rarely use enough humectants….and don’t use multiple forms. Most products…..customers will appreciate….if they simply moisturize. This is done with humectants….and humectants that are different. There is no ONE humectant. Glycerin is a good start …. but way better when you give it some friends.

• And the most important for last. Get your preservation from those that know, DO NOT DO A SURVEY OF OTHER BEGINNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the most important aspect. The thing you will find in common with the cosmetic blogs are these: No formal education in a related field. Never worked a day in the cosmetic industry. These are NOT the people you want to be getting your preservation information from.

• Learn what the hurdle approach / hurdle technology is in cosmetics.

Until you understand that the preservation sellers are in a B2B format, and not required to tell you the truth….you will be completely lost. They will ALL say…. ‘Broad Spectrum’ ….. which literally means absolutely NOTHING. (Means kills or inhibits two or more things.) On a site like this, you have one of the most brilliant people in the field, on the topic, Dr Phil Geis. He is very generous with his time, and if you put a preservation type question in the header….he will usually jump in. Of course, preservations that pose as a dead ferment, nut, tree bark or berry…..are ludicrous cons that have been around forever, to feed the imaginations of the ignorant.

Good luck….and Aloha.

PSS: For bonus points….NEVER call anything a recipe… and formulas are done in grams and percentages. ????

[Graillotion]

Yes, I was aware of how little of those strong anionics they use in those blends. In the past I have used SSG as a co-emulsifier quite often.

As of late….I have fallen in love with SPDMA as my co-emulsifier. ???? Just had to learn to love HP starch….and I have a new love.

I don’t use Rita M…. was just trying to help out some beginners. In your answer you mention oil content…. since the topic is beginners….we know there is too much oil. But could you extrapolate on that idea?

Aloha, and thank you for your time and input, @ketchito .

[Graillotion]

This (excellent) company sells very small samples….so it is not costly to give a handful of interesting fragrances….a trial.

For women…. they have an English Pear and Freesia…..that most women swoon for.

If you use those dreaded EO’s …. one of the few non-citrus….that I can even tolerate….is their Himalayan Cedar… pretty neat stuff… not the same nasty cat pee and pencil shavings you get from most cedars….quite sweet.

[Graillotion]

Yes….Bay rum is the iconic knock-off of Old Spice. Granted in this space….there are 100’s of sellers….there are also likely several mfg’s ….. So the knock-off could vary from seller to seller.

It never appealed enough (at all) to me…..to evaluate. If you want two modern scents….that will make folks swoon…..I will attach them.

Aventus Creed Men Type Fragrance Oil – Wellington Fragrance

Woodsage & Seasalt Jo Malone Type Fragrance Oil – Wellington Fragrance

Give those two a ‘look-see’.

[Graillotion]

@ketchito What about those emulsifiers that contain both? ie Ritamulse? (Glyceryl Stearate & Cetearyl Alcohol & Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate) I see those folks having issues with phase inversions….is this due to the emulsifier blend, or more probable that their addition of additional fatty alcohols is throwing the soup out of balance?

[Graillotion]

Many people do not realize….the chelate has the second most profound effect on preservation. They just view it as something that keeps the formula stable….it is MUCH MUCH more that.

[Graillotion]

Keep the chelate for multiple reasons. Even MB’s making magnesium potions and lotions can and should use a chelate.

A chelate has varying affinity’s… and generally they prefer iron over all others. As you are well aware, mold struggles in an environment completely devoid of iron ions.

Yes…your chelate will become completely exhausted in your metal potion…but it will prioritize what metals it binds with first. This will also be enhanced with the order…..add you water portion and chelate…before you toss the other metals into the potion.

[Graillotion]

Thank you @chemicalmatt for dropping in and rubbing elbows with us earthlings.

I have made my first foray into the world of Salicylic acid…. which has in turn introduced me to a few ingredients that I had not worked with before.

The Sytheon rep mentioned it….as well as I had my eye on it for a while….just needed to be pushed.

Aloha.

• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

great extra piece to be aware of!

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

@ozgirl without reading all 45 pages…. the coverage of that document…seems to be ‘organic’ and ‘natural’. Natural I completely agree with…. so you would still say…. ” organic zinc oxide” in not an acceptable term? Right?

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your research.

It is probably sold to them as…… “The trees that grow our ZnO have not been sprayed with synthetic chemicals or fertilized with toxic fertilizers. They were only grown in the presence of monks humming KumBaya.” ????

[Graillotion]

Umh…..here in the US, that was not a conspiracy theory, but a vaunted agenda…under the name “No child left behind.” Where ALL children were left behind, in the name of the greater good, and goal of ignorance for all.

The results have clearly manifested throughout society now. The politicians realized that an ignorant constituency was far easier to control, than an intellectual one. You can imagine trying to control a society of intellectuals….it would be like herding cats! ????

Aloha

[Graillotion]

It ALMOST seems like you are correlating good products with customer purchases. ????

Customer purchases are almost always correlated to your marketing story. The bigger the pile of BS you can create….the more likely you are to have a big pile of customers as well.

Always focus on your marketing….product is somewhat a moot point.

????

If you want to learn from a successful seller…. you study their marketing approach… NOT the LOI/INCI!

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Wasn’t aware of any companies using ‘toxic’ ingredients! If you come across such a thing, please report to the FDA immediately.

If you look at the ‘baby’ product segment…. You will often see PE 9010. This is generally considered one of the very best for sensitive skin. It does have its weaknesses, so certainly not a standalone option. (The reference to baby products….is a synonym for non-irritating, or very low probability of irritation.)

The fake ferment should NOT be used for babies, as it has hidden ingredients, including salicylic acid!!!

• This reply was modified 9 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Not ChemMatt….and he is still around on occasion. ????