gordof
Forum Replies Created
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Hmm wear is the gelling agent? you are just creating Viskosity by adding high melting PEG 4000 aren’t you? i would gues you destroy your PEG cains with the high potent Urea hydrogen peroxide you are Greeting with this mixture.
However, what is the purpose of this formulation? is that a cosmetic product or a bleaching agent? Combining urea and H2O2 will lead to the formation of Urea hydrogen peroxide (CH6N2O) which is a very potent Bleaching product what are the 15 % EDTA for ?
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is it a shampoo or a conditioner?
It is a lot of cationic Polymer in there for a Shampoo Normally you would use only a very small amount of cationic to give a nice touch to the hair in a shampoo. conditioner is a totally different field of product.
Polyquaternium-7 maybe 1 % even that seems a little much for me as for a normal shampoo
Cetremoinium Chloride max 0.2 % I would go even lower in a shampoo.
If you have too many of them they will lead to instability.
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you can although try to add some bentonite it will help you with the stabilisation of Droplets in your formulation. You can ask suppliers like Emementis Home Page | Elementis Global for the right one for your kind of formulation and how much you should try.
Maybe you already have done something like that it would help to see a general inci list of the ingredients you are using to see what you are already doing to optimize stability.
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hi there
Several things could have happened.
Can you tell if it is a W /O emulsion or an O/W emulsion and if both are the same kind of emulsion?
Sometimes Olivem 1000 tends to build both kinds of emulsions depending on the water and oil content. HLB is around 8 which makes it versatile even if the supplier claims it is mainly for O/W emulsions I myself made a W/O Sunscreen and a O/W Body lotion with it. However, the speed at which you put either the oil phase into the water phase or the Water phase into the oil can have significant effects on the system that will show maybe a few days later.
Did you cool both in a similar way (stirring homogenization process during the cooling phase?)
If you Homogenize one, for example above 50 °C and one lower than 50 °C your Cetearylalcohol can build different structures which can lead to different viscosity results.
Another reason can be the Dropplet size of your formulation did you look under a microscope if the dropplet size is the same for both formulations after that period of time? maybe one is building bigger droplets because of lower sheer during production or some other minor difference in the production process. If so, you can try if the viscosity gets back up again if you homogenize the lower viscosity one.
it is not an easy problem if you make everything in the same way. maybe someone else has more ideas 🤔
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This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by gordof.
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This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by
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hi there
I would like to say that HLB is a nice tool to get some Surface basic information about how your emulsifier will act in your formulation but, and it’s a big one in my opinion, you can and should not only use it on a calculation that you made for your formulations.
Cosmetic development is next to science although a lot of trial and error and even if HLB can help you with a selection of Emulsifiers to determine their role it will not give you the Perfect mathematical tool for the formulation of a Cosmetic Product. The HLB from oils in different combinations is very versatile and I would never go to that point to say coconut oil has XXX HLB and Soja XXX HLB and I use XXX % of each so the Mixtuer HLB is XXX and my Emulsifier needs to match that.
It would be so nice if that would work but in my experience that is not the case. You have so many influence factors like Liquid Crystalin structures Polymer network within your formulation Dropplet Size and so on that have a similar influence on the stability appearance and Touch of your formulation as the Emulsifier system.
General Advice. Use 2 Emulsifiers, one is bigger (molecular wise) and one is smaller It gives you a denser packt surface area of your droplets and increases the necessary energy to brack the droplets and therefore gives more Stability. it can Limit the size of the droplets but normally the stability would be increased. Don’t use high (from 8-18 Froms O/W emulsions) and low HLB (from 3-8Forms W/O emulsions) together they want to make different kinds of emulsions and maybe don’t like the presence of the other Emulsifiere very much at least in my experience. There is a Gray Area between the HLB values but a generalistic rule, if something like that exists in cosmetic formulation, would be to not mix this kind of emulsifiers
best wishes Tobi
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hi
if you just need to generate general information about the formulation sensory-wise and you have access to a Traind Penal you don’t need a Controle or anything they will refer to the training materials and categories accordingly.
Out of interest, you could test the same formulation 2times to see if your Penal produces the same, or let say similar, results again 🙂
Best wishes.
Gordof
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dear levita
you could use Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate or Sodium Lauroyl Glutamate the get it more into a more Sensitve Direction. I would suggest using some Tapioca or Rice Starch ( around 20 -30 % of your formulation) it will help with the skin feel afterward because the slight residue will bind some water which contracts the dry feeling. other than that you can add some Hydrolyzed weet Protein or something similar to improve the skin’s feeling.
other than that you could add around 3 % Betaine. It will reduce irritation and protect the skin from drying out it is rather mild as well. Although it will boost the foam stability of your product hitting 2 targets with one stone.
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Hi
Normally to make homogeneous pigmented products you either need a very good homogenizer ) on a high setting (laboratory 500 g 20 min Homgenization with 10000 to 13000 rpm or a Roller System with several Roles wear the material is rinsed over several times and the Distance between the roles gets smaller and smaller (Colourcosmetic Production is normally done that way).
There is although the Possibility to use Coted Pigments which go easily into the oil phase. Normally the Pigments (iron Oxides) are not water or oil loving so they tend to stick together and build dots. For example, SENSIENT BEAUTY has several different coated pigments for the water or oil phase depending on what your Formulation is ( W/O O/W).
hope that helps
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I think this way to generalize.
of course, experience is very important and you don’t need to have an MS to be a good Cosmetic Developer or scientist.
I made Cosmetic products for myself since I was 14 years old and I have an MS in Organic Chemistry Polymer Chemistry and Surfactant Chemistry. After My time in University, it was a steep learning curve on the job but I think that is always what in every job if you have a university degree or not. In every University degree, you learn 90 % of the stuff you will never ever use again but the 10 % can help you solve problems that a Technician might find a solution to but maybe not understand the way it works.
Like in all jobs, there are the ones that do it because they really live for the topic and they will always be the best address for information and knowledge, and having an MS is just one way of showing this expertise. But I know several Dr. of Chemistry I would not give my products to develop or optimize.
Experience makes a good developer in many ways. but just because you have an MS you don’t be immediately a bad one or worse than any Technician you can find out there. it depends on the individual love for the subject and the willingness to go deeper down the rabbit hole.
😄
pleas don’t evaluate all by the experience of one bad one you encountered.
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hi
Well normally you need to implement the ISO mentioned Regulations in your Company after that you will need to get an auditor that controls if you have done all that is necessary for the 16128 and then you can claim that you work after the ISO Standard.
You can although use a CMO that already has the necessary Certification and claim that your Products are Produced after the ISO Standard you want to have. but In the end, you need to be audited or have an audit report / the current certificate of your sublayer.
i don’t know if there is a way around that if you want to claim ISO 16128
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What do you mean by penetration test?
Normally for deodorants, you need a Sniff Test which gives you the amount of time you can print on the label ( 72 h) …
you need an epicutan test to Evaluate if your formulation is harmful to the skin ( Europe)
you need a Mibi test if you’re not having a lot of alcohol inside.
never heard of a Penetration test and would be interested to know what that means.
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hi
you need to share the formulation at least a little otherwise it will be difficult to identify what the problem is.
Flakes can be many things recrystallized Allantoin, fett, Wax, or powder that is not 100 % dispersed. to give advice we need more information.
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hi, you will find different suppliers on each website so the question is not so much about which one you prefer its more about what supplier are you looking for. Due to the fact the suppliers pay to be listed on this website some decide to just be on one or the other. the two you mentioned are already very good in my opinion and you will find most suppliers there.
I found some that I could not find on either on Cosmetics Ingredients Database | Online Raw Materials Search (specialchem.com)
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This reply was modified 9 months ago by gordof.
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This reply was modified 9 months ago by
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you could use products like OleoCraft™ LP Typs depending on the oils you and the thickness you want to get i think that is a Polyamide
I think PVP could work depending on the supplier as well.
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you can just buy a cosmetic certificate electronic pump and use some food-grade tubes to pump it from one to the other.
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This reply was modified 9 months ago by gordof.
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This reply was modified 9 months ago by
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hi there
about your formulation.
First, you add 3 % lactic acid. in the end, you neutralize with sodium hydroxide to a ph of 6-7. Most of your lactic acid will no longer be in active acidic form by that ph.
2 % allantoin seems to be a lot as far as I know only 0.5 % are soluble in cold water in comparison to the amount of water you are using higher concentrations will probably lead to recrystallization over time with your product even if it is soluble at 80 °C up to 4 %. Due to the fact that allantoin is a water-soluble ingredient it will be washed off either way you should not risk the Recrystallization problem for no effect and only a “claim ingredient” in a rinse-off product (price is something to consider as well).
your conservation system seems a little strange to me phenoxyethanol Benzalkonium chloride Methylchloroisothiazolinone and methylisothiazolinone are a weird combination (never seen anything like that) :). If you use Thiazolinone you can just stick with them I would guess more ingredients there can lead to more allergic reactions.
EDTA is very high at 0.5 % normal concentration would be 0.05 %
2% perfume is very high for a cleansing product that is used close to the nose. 0.5-0.8% I would say. Of course, that depends on the perfume you are using but if you need to use 2 % to get a pleasing scent iw would recommend speaking to your perfume supplier so that they do a rework of the product.
General: Diluting a Cleansing product is possible but it is rather difficult to maintain the use over a range of 80 % dilution without risking either the low level not performing well enough or the high level being too aggressive. although if you dilute and this dilution should hold a few days conservation will be very problematic to maintain in a good way.
I would always prefer to make 2 Formulations in that case one with a higher concentration and one with a lower to be safe.
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the scent transfer to the oil is not uncommon. You used the neroli flower Water which normally is the Water Destield Neroli Flower. Some Components of this Water distillate will be Soluble in oil so if you mix it with oil it will take a part of the scent that is Hydrophil and Lipophil to a certain percentage and therefore the oil phase will have the scent as well.
on the separation, I don’t have a direct idea.
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The yellow Cloure is coursed by the Tiosulfate that oxidates. if that process is gone to fare the product will no longer work very well. Although your ph is very important you need a ph of at least 10 -11 to have a propper function of that kind of product.
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The tocopheryl acetate is not used as a thickening agent normally never heard of that. the Viscosity is not that high and never heard about the possibility of structurally influencing another molecule with that.
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hi sorry for the late replay but it’s the holiday season 🙂
Well, not a concentrated version just a Purified one.
And the test for the product is a little difficult too much can lead to mattified hair which is mostly not targeted by hair products. but the problem is that this will depend very much on the hair type and the person that is using your Product.
the Amount to use depends on the Product type you are making. if you want to make an old fashion “i don’t need to wash my hair for a few days because I am on holiday and don’t have the ability to do that” you need a higher amount to absorb and afterward your Product needs to be Brushed out. If you have a modern approach wear you just want to extend the washing cycle about 1 day or use it as a styling product you need much less starch to get that effect.
you can look at the homepage of Aggrana ( AGRANA International | Frucht, Stärke, Zucker | AGRANA ) they have various formulations for both wear you can get an idea of how much starch is needed to get the effect you want to have.
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The smell of betaine is kind of unpleasant yes. if it did not help you can still try to use the Powders I mentioned in my first post. Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate or Sodium Lauroyl Glutamate form very fine pored foams
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ah ok, now I understand Sorry for the wrong interpretation.
Well, then you are right adding that much starch will be problematic for a refill product.
You need to add some conservation system to the system in a high concentration. it is always very difficult to formulate home tap water product refills.
While your powder itself will not be problematic the mixture with water will be very much problematic with microbes. Several others, that know a lot more about Microbes than I do, already mentioned in other threads. it will be very difficult to formulate that. especially if you want it to function as 2 products (use pure or use Dilutet as a refill) in one of the two you will either have a too-high concentration which will lead to unpleasant skin feel or you have a too-low concentration of Antimicrobiotic active substances.
Depending on the regulations and the Limitations that you have you could use propyl and Methylparaben as Conservation systems.
for the mildness, I will think about it and come back maybe someone else has a good idea for that kind of product. I think Beatin will be a good idea anyway but maybe something else will be good.
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I mean betain not Coco Betaine or Cocamidopropylbetain.
I understood your QUestion that you want to make a powder Formulation ? is that wrong if you want to do a Pump ? or do you want a Powder that the Person at home will than dissolve himself in a bigger Quantity in Water and fill in a refill Container?
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AHHHH thx a lot no i am no longer confused 🙂
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could you tell me what exactly this test is? is it to analyze the amount of deo that penetrates throughout the skin?
