evchem2
Forum Replies Created
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@Newtoformulating, sorry my aim isn’t to confuse you.
You don’t have a traditional oil phase. I’m not well versed in haircare so maybe my understanding is wrong but ceteareth-25, PEG-40 HCO, and PEG-7 are all emulsifiers/surfactants. The ceteareth is necessary for creating the gel, the accudyne is your fixative, so I was wondering why you include the PEGs when you don’t have anything that won’t go into the water phase (unless there’s fragrance?). If you are happy with your product performance then there’s no reason to change, I was just asking to learn
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Does that incompatibility have anything to do with coacervate formation or is that really just for deposition benefits?
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@Sara21 I would reverse that order and put xanthan gum in first, PQ-10 you could reserve a small amount of water and add that as a premix last
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@Newtoformulating okay maybe I missed it but you don’t have an oil phase? You have multiple emulsifiers/solubilizers but I don’t see anything they are needed for.
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second Bills suggestion. You can try more viscous oils, smaller particle size (lighter) mica, there are several oil thickeners (polyamides or the Ajinomoto products)
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If you reduce the pH you will lose some of the functionality of the acudyne. Why are you adding the PEGs? What do you think they contribute to the formula?
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When are you adding the xanthan gum and the PQ 10?
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Don’t increase the sodium benzoate any more you are already well over the recommended use level. If your pH is 6 it is not actively preserving anyway. Swap our for one of your other listed preservatives (parabens? Not sure how well they perform in surfactant systems) and keep to use levels that are realistic for the product (<0.1%). More is not always better
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I would say try again at 1% at the indicated pH range. It’s also possible they could have gone much higher, say 3-4% carbomer.
What’s your order of addition? They do have TEA listed higher than carbomer, so maybe they are neutralizing and then breaking the carbomer/ reducing pH using the aloe (possibly some of the vitamin C or DHA too) which contains electrolytes that most grades of carbomer (especially 980) will be sensitive to.Other links of interest
https://dewolfchem.com/formulations/peeling-gel-190111k/
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015018134A1/en -
What phase are you adding the zinc oxide to- water or oil? below pH 6 zinc oxide will start dissolving and you will have Zn ions in solution or new complexes which causes some formulation instability
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Not sure if I’m reading your post right, but add the carbomer first and give it time to hydrate in water (you can add your glycols as well) but stay away from cationics/ actives until carbomer is hydrated. What is the final pH you are adjusting to?
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I’d second Phil’s point- and can you clarify what exactly is ‘egg powder’
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We might need to hear more about your system to be most helpful. Can you at least list the other ingredients in your formula? Isoamyl laurate, triethyl citrate can help with tack. Is it actually tackiness (that sticky feeling), can you describe the sensory feeling you are unhappy with more?
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It’s likely the carbomer, if the pH is 4-5 they aren’t neutralizing it fully and that may be pilling and giving the appearance of skin flaking off. How much carbomer were you using and what grade, and were you staying in the same pH range?
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Increasing viscosity can definitely help with suspension even if it just delays the amount of time before you see settling. You could also look to match density of your particulates to the liquid phase, or get even more in-depth and account for size of particulate and an ‘allowable’ rate of separation (the velocity) to figure out what viscosity you need your liquid to be (stokes law)
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@Pharma do you have any literature on the alkyl benzoate interphase interaction? Is that just based on the structure? I’m a little confused since most sites I’ve seen say it has a ‘required HLB’ near 13.
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What’s the final pH of the product and do you monitor pH over time
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https://www.cpkelco.com/products/pectin/genu-phresh-pectin-i-cp-kelco/
There are certain grades marketed for cosmetic use (see link), but Mark is generally right.
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I like ketchitos suggestion, you could do the same to evaluate your concern of homogenisation damaging your final viscosity- Split the batch and homogenize half as you normally would. If it’s really for a few seconds I doubt there would be a noticeable impact, but that’s what experimentation is for.
I always add xanthan gum and other hydrocolloids to the water phase relatively early on- these gums need time to hydrate and they tend to swell better in pure water (or as close to it as you can get).
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I think the important things to consider are consistency in the testing method first and foremost. You do want your torque to be in a ‘good’ range for the instrument you are using so your readings are reliable. Second why do you want to characterize viscosity- is this an internal QC parameter you want to meet? Is the speed you are choosing correlated to some processing step (pumping through a tube, mixing) that you need to understand your formulations properties during?
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@ketchito thank you, I meant in a system where you were already using polymeric thickeners would you still see the effect from polyols?
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Thank you @MapX ! So they are in fact competing in micelle formation? Would you see this drop in viscosity if you have polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in the formula
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Have you tried thickening with just salt? and are the percentages for your surfactants the active matter %? CAPB often comes as ~30% solution for example
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you could also try replacing the HEC with xanthan gum since that has synergy with guar and can create increased viscosity. I’d try a ratio of 1:3 xanthan: guar.
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you may need to adjust your pH to slightly acidic before you add surfactants to let the guar fully hydrate