Doreen
Forum Replies Created
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None.
For my AT/deo cream I use triethyl citrate (Dermofeel TEC eco) as deodorizing active (and aluminium chlorohydrate as antiperspirant.) (Although I expect most, if not all, from the AlClOH).
‘Completely halt the odor-causing reactions on external skin. … ‘
What a bold claim btw! -
@Jdawgswife76
You seem to misunderstand the reasons why some things are mentioned, it’s NOT to make you look stupid or to discourage you from experimenting.Regarding only ‘idiots’ that make aspirin masks: google it and you see it is done by a great number of people. Even a long time member on this forum has suffered a salicylate poisoning through a gel/cream some time ago. It can happen even in lower concentrations in certain circumstances, like I wrote.
A lot of GP’s don’t even recognize a salicylate poisoning when they get it in their practice.
It’s only because of my pharmaceutical background that I know this very well.
I was only trying to warn you.
http://www.e-lactancia.org/media/papers/SalicilicoPK-jAmAcDerm2014.pdf -
@Fekher
Ok, got it!
:+1: I didn’t know it was for hair loss.
I hope you will find something useful.(Dr. Straetmans (an Evonik brand) also has all their prototype formulas online.
https://www.dr-straetmans.de/en/products/ ) -
@Jdawgswife76
No need to become hostile. If you’re that well educated than why do you ask novice questions on this forum. Take it down a notch or two.
People here have helped you numerous time and if you reply with ‘that’s obvious’ or the rant above here, maybe this forum isn’t for you. -
@ngarayeva001
I have one of her BHA toners as my benchmark. I can assure you the pH of some toners go as low as pH 3.2. (And Paula’s Choice isn’t the only brand with this.) I keep them around 3.8 as I think 3.2 is too low for me and it’s still below 4.
(without NaOH the pH in a 2% SA aqueous solution is around 2.50) -
@ngarayeva001
Please take your favorite acid toner and measure its pH. I don’t know which one you are using, but I know, it’s 6.I’m sorry, but this isn’t true. Take Paula’s Choice for instance. Her AHA/BHA toners start from pH 3.2.
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@Fekher
Microformulation just answered the question. It’s an Evonik product. Practically all those prototype formulations can be found online. -
@Sibech
Maybe there is confusion with polyisobutene (not hydrogenated), which can be used as oil thickener. -
The dimethicon crosspolymer may have emulsifying properties.
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Besides the necessity of a good pH meter that ngarayeva001 rightfully mentions, it’s also important to know the substances you are working with.
There have been several cases of salicylate intoxication through the use of dermal preparations, varying from very mild to severe and even lethal. Especially when used on large parts of inflammated or otherwise damaged skin as the absorption will be even higher then.
There are loads of DIY sites that give tips to use handsful of pulverized aspirins (acetylsalicylic acid) mixed with e.g. honey for a self made skin peeling. Or they mix acids with bases without even knowing. These people obviously have no idea what they are doing. Besides toxicity it’s harmful for the skin as peelings should be left to experts.Also, if you’re allergic to asprin, you shouldn’t use salicylic acid on the skin.
I know that you’re making a rinse off rather than leave on, but I just wanted to point out an important reason as example why formulations with AHA’s or BHA’s aren’t for beginners to experiment with.
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What other acids do you use? SA isn’t an alpha hydroxy acid.
Also, I don’t think this is material for novices. -
p.s. I just read your initial question + first reply again and see that you don’t mention the use of ceramides anywhere. I somehow thought you were using those?! That’s why I wrote about it, sorry for being so long-winded about it! :no_mouth:
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No problem, my pleasure!
I think it’s important to share as much important information as possible, especially about preservatives, because this is so extremely important and is a huge ‘chapter’ on itself within cosmetics.
I’ve learnt a valuable lesson that there isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ solution for preservatives. Every formula (or with any adaptation within a formula), you have to take a good look at the preservatives. Do they interact with other substances in the formula, is the pH right, does it contain ‘bugfood’ (like mineral water, oat, honey, extracts, proteins, clay, milk) etc.About the Dermosoft 1388 and 1388 ECO. There is also Dermosoft 688 and Dermosoft 688 ECO, these contain anisic acid, manufacturer states explicitly that it’s active against mould/fungi. You could also use this together with Optiphen (phenoxyethanol + caprylyl glycol).
A blend that is similar to this Optiphen blend is Euxyl PE 9010 (phenoxyethanol and ethylhexylglycerin).Jeecide Cap-5 contains potassium sorbate, this is the salt of sorbic acid. I don’t know what the supplier recommends, but potassium sorbate needs a low pH (below 5) in order to convert to its active acid (sorbic acid).
And phenoxyethanol + chlorphenesin. I don’t have experience with this blend, so I can’t really say something about it. Maybe others here can chime in.
All I know is that chlorphenesin (carbamate) is an obsolete muscle relaxant.
I looked it up and read here that it has a high irritancy rate.The best and only way to know if a preservative blend is actually working in your formula is to do microbial tests by a lab!
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmetic-tests-you-must-run-before-launching-your-product/Best of luck again and don’t hesitate to ask any question you have!
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@Perry
You’re right! I thought it had a negative charge at higher pH’s.
( Ingredients To Die For is also mistaken I see: ‘Allantoin is an amphoteric compound that is anionic under basic conditions.’)
Thanks for clearing that up! Now I know I never have to worry combining it with anionics.
Thanks!! -
@Sibech
Ok, thanks a lot!! -
nara said:First add tween 80 to vit E in same amount then add to water phase
I thought vitamin E was notoriously ‘difficult’ to solubilize to a clear dispersion, i.e. needs considerably more solubilizer than the same amount.
@ngarayeva001
PEG-40 HCO (which is much better solubilizer than poly 80I think it depends on what substance you’re solubilizing, whether poly 80 is better or worse than another.
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@Perry
So allantoin has a neutral charge between pH 4.5 and 6, below 4.5 cationic and above 6 anionic?
Edit: Would it be very different if the concentration decreases to 0.5%, or lower?Thanks so much, Perry! :+1: :smiley:
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Thanks for sharing, David!
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pH 6 is too high for Optiphen plus. The sorbic acid in Optiphen Plus is inactivated at a pH that high. And it’s the sorbic acid that is active against mold.
Do you use clay that is sterilized (by radiation)? Remember, clay is dirt! -
What preservative do you use? Sorbic acid or potassium sorbate can give flushing-like sensations like you describe.
Neroli and witch hazel can be potential irritants.
7% licorice is a lot by the way! That toner must be quite dark in colour!
With NAC you mean NAG? -
Aw, I had hoped for another magical mystery LOI, but no such luck. :joy:
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You’re welcome! I’m glad that my answers have been helpful for you.
You do not necessarily need a large oil phase for the skin barrier repair effects.
You can also make a High Internal Phase (HIP emulsions) W/O cream, with an oil
phase of only 10% for example, or a ‘gel-in-oil’ cream (Geltrap), this is
patented by Seppic, which is very much like a HIPe W/O.These emulsions are said to reduce TEWL (trans epidermal water loss)
even more than an average O/W cream with higher oil phase. Maybe it’s too much
for a beginner to start with, but I wanted to make clear that a higher oil
phase doesn’t always necessarily mean more benefit.About the Ecomulse, I think 8-9% can handle an oil phase of 25% as the xanthan
will help to stabilize the emulsion.A ceramide complex, with skin identical lipids is indeed a very good idea as
skin barrier repair active. The ratios are very important. An optimal mixture
is 50% ceramides, 25% cholesterol and 15% free fatty acids.And tocopherols are not only great as anti-oxidant for the oils in the emulsion,
but also seem a skin protectant as the vernix caseosa (the wax like substance
new born babies, especially premature ones, are covered in) is primarily made
of ceramides and contain tocopherols as well. Here is a good read on ceramides (if they are useful actives in skincare products).As ceramides aren’t exactly the cheapest actives, I would suggest to add them
in a later stage of experimentation and first focus on making your first
emulsions. Though it is necessary to include them later on, as they have a huge
influence on the viscosity (they tend to decrease it), however this doesn’t
always mean that the emulsion becomes less stable.About your choice of preservative blend. Optiphen (phenoxyethanol + caprylyl
glycol) isn’t exactly the strongest, especially not on fungi/yeast. I would
recommend to include something that is especially strong on fungi. Parabens are
great on fungi and yeast, but I don’t think you want to use them, I think?
(Strictly speaking they are of natural origin, parabens are found in several
kinds of fruit for example).Organic acids like benzoic or sorbic acid or their salts can’t be chosen,
because of your pH of around 5. Maybe Dermosoft 1388 (ECO) with sodium anisate
and sodium levulinate is an idea. These are also organic acids and it’s Ecocert
certified. This blend needs a pH of 5 – 5.3 (Supplier says it can handle pH
<5, >4, but then it might recrystallize). And a pH of 5 – 5.3 doesn’t
give much ‘freedom’, so a good pH meter is a necessity.Supplier describes this blend as broad spectrum which can be used alone, but it
definitely needs pairing up with Aw reducers like caprylyl glycol, glyceryl
caprylate etc. and a chelating agent like disodium EDTA or sodium phytate. And
of course use water that’s as pure (i.e. without minerals) as you can get, so
distilled and or deionized.About the borage oil. If adding anti-oxidants is enough depends on the shelf
life you plan to give to your cream.I don’t think it’s enough if you plan to sell it as you can’t expect customers
to use it within 3 months after manufacturing. Borage oil oxidizes rapidly even
with anti-oxidants and the reason it’s because it is rich in unsaturated fatty
acids like GLA. So the reason that you want to add it, is also the reason it is unstable and becomes rancid quickly. Especially in larger quantities!I think 7% is also too much oil to add in your cool down phase as it’s a substantative part of your total
oil phase.Good luck!
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@scelce
If you’re planning to make 100 gram batches and you want these to become 2 kilogram batches (2000 gram), you multiply the weights by 20 (20 x 100 gram = 2000 gram.)
But a better way is to calculate straight from the percentages of your formula.- 1% of a preservative blend in a 100 gram batch can be calculated as follows:
Total is 100% = 100 grams. 100/100 * 1 = 1 gram.
- 1% of a preservative blend in a 2000 gram batch:
Total is 100% = 2000 gram. 2000/100 * 1 = 20 grams.
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You don’t choose the easiest emulsifiers to start with. Most beginners start with an emulsifying wax blend like polysorbate 60 + cetearyl alcohol (which doesn’t need high shear).
I think 8% Ecomulse is a good starting point and you could lower your oil phase a bit. 0.2-0.3% xanthan gum is also a good idea, it’s also anionic. Personally I totally dislike gums and prefer synthetic polymers like carbomers, but that’s personal, to each his own. And most of us start experimenting with xanthan gum first (as did I).About the recommended pH for Ecomulse: what type of preservative (blend) are you planning to use? Ecomulse and Olivem are Ecocert certified, is that important for you? (Blends with) organic acids like benzoic acid, sorbic acid (and their (sodium) salts) need lower pH’s to be functional, so these can’t be used with Ecomulse, as a pH >5 is too high.
If you use vegetable oils in your emulsion you need an anti-oxidant as well, like tocopherol. Tocopherol acetate won’t do. BHT, rosemary extract, ascorbyl palmitate are also good choices, depending on your other ingredients.
Vitamin C and E work synergystically, so you can use these together (like in a blend, I use Phytrox LTR-15 IP MB with ascorbyl palmitate, tocopherols and rosemary).
If you use a tocopherol blend that is rich in alpha-tocopherol, do not exceed 0.1 - 0.2% as it might paradoxically become pro-oxidative.
Gamma and delta tocopherols aren’t a problem if you use these in a higher concentration.Good luck and let us know how your first experiment went!