Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Polysorbate 20, 80 for AHA facial cleanser or toner

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  • Polysorbate 20, 80 for AHA facial cleanser or toner

    Posted by Jdawgswife76 on December 19, 2018 at 9:26 pm

    I am trying to formulate a AHA clenser  and i have nevet worked with polysorbate as of yet but i have not been able to dissolve the salicylic acid and have it not recrystalize.  I was going to formulate it with a small amount of squalane and a pinch of poly.  Mu queation is do i need to heat the polysorbate with with oil and SA before adding  the h2o.  Any help please i hve been working on  this for a week now trying different ways to keep the SA from re crystalizing

    Jdawgswife76 replied 5 years, 5 months ago 10 Members · 44 Replies
  • 44 Replies
  • ozgirl

    Member
    December 19, 2018 at 10:22 pm

    Try a search for salicylic acid on this forum. The options for dissolving SA have been discussed many times.

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 19, 2018 at 11:12 pm

    Thats a bit obvious,  however thats not my only question.  I am looking for someone that can possjbly provide some better assistance.  I also do not seem to have a search option when using the site in my phone in which i am currently doing. 

  • ozgirl

    Member
    December 19, 2018 at 11:49 pm
    No idea how to search on the phone but this discussion might be helpful

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 1:23 am

    Thank you

  • Gunther

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 1:51 am

    Is that a rinse off cleanser?
    Because if it is, salycilic acid won’t do much in the short time it is on the skin.

    If it’s wipe clean formulation, some may be left on the skin
    and you need to make sure that salycilic acid doesn’t crystallize and polysorbate doesn’t leave a sticky afterfeel.

  • Doreen

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 4:33 am

    What other acids do you use? SA isn’t an alpha hydroxy acid. 
    Also, I don’t think this is material for novices.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 7:13 am

    Do you have a professional  pH probe that shows pH in decimal point? Please don’t touch acids until you buy it. I am not trying to be dramatic, you will hurt yourself. pH stripes are not accurate. Also pH can change after the product is made and you need a lot of knowledge to formulate with acids. 

  • em88

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:16 am

    Humanity always wants to learn things the hard way lol.
    PEG 400 + propylene glycol + ethanol should dissolve SA very easy. 

  • Doreen

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:44 am

    Besides the necessity of a good pH meter that ngarayeva001 rightfully mentions, it’s also important to know the substances you are working with.

    There have been several cases of salicylate intoxication through the use of dermal preparations, varying from very mild to severe and even lethal. Especially when used on large parts of inflammated or otherwise damaged skin as the absorption will be even higher then. 
    There are loads of DIY sites that give tips to use handsful of pulverized aspirins (acetylsalicylic acid) mixed with e.g. honey for a self made skin peeling. Or they mix acids with bases without even knowing. These people obviously have no idea what they are doing. Besides toxicity it’s harmful for the skin as peelings should be left to experts.

    Also, if you’re allergic to asprin, you shouldn’t use salicylic acid on the skin.

    I know that you’re making a rinse off rather than leave on, but I just wanted to point out an important reason as example why formulations with AHA’s or BHA’s aren’t for beginners to experiment with. 

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 6:44 pm

    @Jdawgswife76, I hope you don’t get us wrong. All these comments are not to discourage you from formulating and trying new things. But you really need a lot of experience for acids because they are dangerous. All these toners in the market are neutralized (they don’t do anything). You will be shocked how 5% lactic acid can burn your skin when formulated at low pH. And you might do it because you probably used 5% commercial acid toner on your face before. Please take your favorite acid toner and measure its pH. I don’t know which one you are using, but I know, it’s 6.

    Start with emulsions. Learn all ingredients and types of products. Once you are comfortable with lotions, move to surfactants, because they are much more tricky. I noticed you are trying to formulate shampoo with glucosides. I am sure you will be able to make it, but you will not like it. Glucosides are terrible for shampoos. And it’s ok, I made that mistake, that is why I know it. So start from liquid soap, then maybe body wash, then shampoo (it’s the most difficult one). I highly discourage you to experiment with 1) retinol, 2) acids 3) sunscreens (especially sunscreens) until you have a lot of experience. I will send you some useful materials.

  • belassi

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 8:53 pm

    Once you are comfortable with lotions, move to surfactants, because they are much more tricky.
    — Seconded.

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:16 pm

    ngarayeva001 said: 

    Do you have a professional  pH probe that shows pH in decimal point? Please don’t touch acids until you buy it. I am not trying to be dramatic, you will hurt yourself. pH stripes are not accurate. Also pH can change after the product is made and you need a lot of knowledge to formulate with acids. 

    Yes i have a ph probe! 

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:19 pm

    I am very comfotable with lotions,  conditioners,  serums,  and other formulations this is not my first one.  I have all the equipment that i need and i am aware of all safety and sterilization procedures.  Iam looking for an answer to my question thats all i need.  Thanks

  • Doreen

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:26 pm
    @ngarayeva001
    Please take your favorite acid toner and measure its pH. I don’t know which one you are using, but I know, it’s 6. 

    I’m sorry, but this isn’t true. Take Paula’s Choice for instance. Her AHA/BHA toners start from pH 3.2. 

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:27 pm

    Gunther said:

    Is that a rinse off cleanser?
    Because if it is, salycilic acid won’t do much in the short time it is on the skin.

    If it’s wipe clean formulation, some may be left on the skin
    and you need to make sure that salycilic acid doesn’t crystallize and polysorbate doesn’t leave a sticky afterfeel.

    I am looking to make a toner orleave on solution and peel at later time.  The sticky is what im trying to avoid which is what PG causes.  So basically im looking for someone who knows how to work with SA i guess would be the better question and also using POLY in aqueous formulations.  I have not used POLY before i have steered away from it but i have some now and am just looking for some helpful info and wondered if that would help with the SA 

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:29 pm

    Doreen said:

    What other acids do you use? SA isn’t an alpha hydroxy acid. 
    Also, I don’t think this is material for novices.

    I meant BHA lol i just realized i put AHA.  I also use a glycolic (AHA)  peel and toner. 

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:38 pm

    Doreen said:

    Besides the necessity of a good pH meter that ngarayeva001 rightfully mentions, it’s also important to know the substances you are working with.

    There have been several cases of salicylate intoxication through the use of dermal preparations, varying from very mild to severe and even lethal. Especially when used on large parts of inflammated or otherwise damaged skin as the absorption will be even higher then. 
    There are loads of DIY sites that give tips to use handsful of pulverized aspirins (acetylsalicylic acid) mixed with e.g. honey for a self made skin peeling. Or they mix acids with bases without even knowing. These people obviously have no idea what they are doing. Besides toxicity it’s harmful for the skin as peelings should be left to experts.

    Also, if you’re allergic to asprin, you shouldn’t use salicylic acid on the skin.

    I know that you’re making a rinse off rather than leave on, but I just wanted to point out an important reason as example why formulations with AHA’s or BHA’s aren’t for beginners to experiment with. 

    I dont need a lecture from anyone.  I have done plenty of my research on what i work with I asked a simple question for some insight while I am doing my own research.  I didnt ask anyone for there smart remarks in which whom know nothing  about my formulating background or practices. I was not aware that some people on here just want to make someone look stupid.  Some of these comments  are common sence and really do not show that your much more educated on the ingredient than myselfe or you would provide some real helpful answers not just state the obvious. Thank you m88 for your input minus your un needed remark. 

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:41 pm

    @Doreen, Paula’s choice products are very well formulated. I am sure her products are at pH where acids are active. I tested many popular commercial products. Many of them are neutralised for a simple reason, to cause less irritation. 

  • Doreen

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:46 pm

    @ngarayeva001
    I have one of her BHA toners as my benchmark. I can assure you the pH of some toners go as low as pH 3.2. (And Paula’s Choice isn’t the only brand with this.) I keep them around 3.8 as I think 3.2 is too low for me and it’s still below 4.
    (without NaOH the pH in a 2% SA aqueous solution is around 2.50)

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 9:56 pm

    @Doreen All of that info is zero to do with my post.  Anyone can get that info anywhere and only an IDIOT would make a asprin for a peel.  I am not just somekne who tries ro use aloe juice and honey for a face mask and keep it on my counter or in the fridge and think in a week i can reuse it.  I have plently of formulating experience and knowledge.  I could have gotten that info on youtube.  I am not just someone who sits at home and makes things out of my kitchen cupboard.  There are thousands of ingredients in the cosmetic world and I am very well educated on the ones I have chosen to use and plan to use HINTS the purpose for  this post.  I am not just relying on the answers i get in this post THANK GOD!  The 2 ingredients in this post AS STATED I am just starting to familiarize myselfe with BY CHOICE!  I was hoping for a useful answer from someone with experience with these 2 ingredients.  I also have the data sheets on all 16 different  solvents used to solubilize SA.  I was just asking for some input… .Thanks anyway.   

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 10:00 pm

    Lol @Doreen actually all cosmetic formulating should be left for expert. You become a expert from experience,  knowledge,  and practice.  You do not need a degree to do a peel!! 

  • Doreen

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 10:05 pm

    @Jdawgswife76
    No need to become hostile. If you’re that well educated than why do you ask novice questions on this forum. Take it down a notch or two.
    People here have helped you numerous time and if you reply with ‘that’s obvious’ or the rant above here, maybe this forum isn’t for you.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    December 20, 2018 at 10:25 pm

    Yes, you can use a combination of 1,3-Propanediol @ about 20% to 30% + 1% Sodium Citrate … if you’re using SA in the 1% range, that should do the trick. Keep your final pH around 3.8 to 4.0.

  • Jdawgswife76

    Member
    December 21, 2018 at 4:12 am

    I was looking for a 2% SA but its ok i can do the math from here and ty.  Wouldpropylene glycol be the better solvent as from what i have seen its a sronger solvent however i know it becomes VERY sticky in high % 

  • em88

    Member
    December 21, 2018 at 7:41 am

    @Doreen All of that info is zero to do with my post. 

    This is a little impolite. Everyone thought from your first post that you have little experience. It is great to see that you are experienced in formulating, it will make it easier for us to help. 
    Unfortunately you didn’t pay attention to all the posts. I told you three ingredients that can dissolve SA and if those are suitable for your formulation I’d suggest you to test them. Increasing the pH will also help in dissolving SA, in this case you can use trisodium citrate. We can not give you exact amounts of ingredients, but since the SA concentration is only 2%, it is an easy task to figure out by performing several tests. 

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