David08848
Forum Replies Created
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I’ll make this quick!
When I calculated the above formula at the 5%/1% KOH/NaOH ratio that they suggest, I come out with 7.5 and 1.0.
When they do it, they come out with 7.0 and 1.5! If I divide the 7.0 KOH by 5, I come up with 1.4 which is really close to the 1.5 of their formula for the NaOH and if calculated that way would fulfill their 5/1 ratio approximately.
What I don’t get is whether they are using the SAP values and calculating that way or are they using volume instead of weight? Please help! Thanks!
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Belassi said:I calculated the formula in Harry’s and it seems to be 0% superfat. The formula is not bad but the 10% glycerin is too high. I added 3% avocado oil and 2% Silsense DW15. It is not bad but not as good as Gillette.
Interesting, Belassi! I just calculated the same Harry’s formulation and found it had an almost 3/1 ratio for the KOH/NaOH and it came out to 10% superfat! What ratio did you use?
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So, after
going over all of this I finally came to a conclusion… I read from so
many old sources that the shaving
cream should have 45% water, 45% soap
and 10% glycerin but in newer
more-modern formulas they would have listed these as the water phase and the oil phase and that the bases KOH,
NaOH and TEA would be a part of the water phase and that the glycerin would
have been listed as a separate additive to the water phase that should be used
at rate of 10% in the formula.In trying to
make it work, I removed about 4.5% of the oil phase and I made my calculations
from the amount left. This made both the oils and the bases to saponify them at
lower numbers than they should have been. It made an OK shaving cream but not what it potentially
could be! I have now made those changes
in my formula and hopefully the results will work out! My other problem was that I included
preservative and scent in my formula but the above listed formula (and other old
formulas) did not do that so that threw off my numbers as well! I will list them as additives for the homogenization
phase at the end of the process.My goal is to
create the same type of shaving cream that is sold by British companies for
decades and not use more modern and perhaps less “natural” ingredients to do
so! There are quite a few sources out
there for formula research over the last 100 years or so for this type of
product but they often don’t specify what the end results will be! A few of them listed formulations as “lathering”
creams but other just refer to them as “shaving creams” which made be anywhere
between a heavy cream to a less liquid soap to a heavier, more pasty type of soap
product so that make the selection of formulas difficult! I’m very close to where I need to be!As a soap-based
product, it is something that is not often dealt with by cosmetic chemists
whose approach to a product like this may be different but still your input has
been and will be appreciated! x -
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:
As you can see, it is 1.0 NaOH with 7.5 KOH NOT 1.5 NaOH and 7.0 KOH!
If I use an almost 3/1 ratio KOH to NaOH I come up with:
Lye and Water
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) 23%
Discount NaOH Water
0 % 1.633 oz 3.3 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.9 oz)
1 % 1.616 oz 3.2 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.8 oz)
2 % 1.600 oz 3.2 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.8 oz)
3 % 1.584 oz 3.2 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.8 oz)
4 % 1.567 oz 3.1 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.7 oz)
5 % 1.551 oz 3.1 oz (range: 1.6 to 4.7 oz)
6 % 1.535 oz 3.1 oz (range: 1.5 to 4.6 oz)
7 % 1.518 oz 3.0 oz (range: 1.5 to 4.6 oz)
8 % 1.502 oz 3.0 oz (range: 1.5 to 4.5 oz)
9 % 1.486 oz 3.0 oz (range: 1.5 to 4.5 oz)
10 % 1.469 oz 2.9 oz (range: 1.5 to 4.4 oz)
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) 77%
Discount KOH Water
0 % 7.665 oz. 15.3 oz (range: 7.7 to 23.0 oz)
1 % 7.589 oz 15.2 oz (range: 7.6 to 22.8 oz)
2 % 7.512 oz 15.0 oz (range: 7.5 to 22.5 oz)
3 % 7.435 oz 14.9 oz (range: 7.4 to 22.3 oz)
4 % 7.359 oz 14.7 oz (range: 7.4 to 22.1 oz)
5 % 7.282 oz 14.6 oz (range: 7.3 to 21.8 oz)
6 % 7.205 oz 14.4 oz (range: 7.2 to 21.6 oz)
7 % 7.129 oz 14.3 oz (range: 7.1 to 21.4 oz)
8 % 7.052 oz 14.1 oz (range: 7.1 to 21.2 oz)
9 % 6.975 oz 14.0 oz (range: 7.0 to 20.9 oz)
10 % 6.899 oz. 13.8 oz (range: 6.9 to 20.7 oz)
These numbers are pretty close to the formula from Harry’s but the ratio become about 3/1 and not 5/1! This and other sources also stated the a 3-5% of free fatty acids would “helps to attain a soft consistency” but several formulas had around 10% of free fatty acids in them!
I am seeking several “base formulas” from which I can determine the best route to go with this formula. Any input and comments are welcome! Thank you.
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I’m re-examining this
formula and all formulas I have collected(A)
Stearic acid =
30.00%Coconut oil =
10.00%Palm Oil =
5.00%(
Potassium Hydroxide = 7.00%
Soda caustic =
1.50%Glycerin =
10.00%water =
36.50%Harry’s recommends 5/1
ratio of KOH/NaOH it also recommends a 3-5% free fatty acids used in the
formula. I recalculated the SAP values with a 5/1 ratio and came up with:Oil
Percent
SAP Value
Quantity
Palm Kernel Oil
11.11%
242
5 oz
Coconut Oil
22.22%
256.5
10 oz
Stearic Acid
66.67%
210
30 oz
Total:
45 oz
Superfat
Percent
0%
1%
2%
3%
4%
5%
6%
7%
8%
9%
10%
oz
0.00
0.45
0.90
1.35
1.80
2.25
2.70
3.15
3.60
4.05
4.50
Lye and Water
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) 16.66%
Discount
NaOH
Water
0 %
1.221 oz
2.4 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.7 oz)1 %
1.209 oz
2.4 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.6 oz)2 %
1.197 oz
2.4 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.6 oz)3 %
1.185 oz
2.4 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.6 oz)4 %
1.172 oz
2.3 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.5 oz)5 %
1.160 oz
2.3 oz (range: 1.2
to 3.5 oz)6 %
1.148 oz
2.3 oz (range: 1.1
to 3.4 oz)7 %
1.136 oz
2.3 oz (range: 1.1
to 3.4 oz)8 %
1.124 oz
2.2 oz (range: 1.1
to 3.4 oz)9 %
1.111 oz
2.2 oz (range: 1.1
to 3.3 oz)10 %
1.099 oz
2.2 oz (range: 1.1 to
3.3 oz)Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) 83.34%
Discount
KOH
Water
0 %
8.362 oz
16.7 oz (range: 8.4
to 25.1 oz)1 %
8.279 oz
16.6 oz (range: 8.3
to 24.8 oz)2 %
8.195 oz
16.4 oz (range: 8.2
to 24.6 oz)3 %
8.111 oz
16.2 oz (range: 8.1
to 24.3 oz)4 %
8.028 oz
16.1 oz (range: 8.0
to 24.1 oz)5 %
7.944 oz
15.9 oz (range: 7.9
to 23.8 oz)6 %
7.861 oz
15.7 oz (range: 7.9
to 23.6 oz)7 %
7.777 oz
15.6 oz (range: 7.8
to 23.3 oz)8 %
7.693 oz
15.4 oz (range: 7.7
to 23.1 oz)9 %
7.610 oz
15.2 oz (range: 7.6
to 22.8 oz)10 %
7.526 oz
15.1 oz (range: 7.5 to
22.6 oz) -
ozgirl said:This product is probably incorrectly labelled and if you have measured the pH at 5.5 then it does not contain potassium cocoate.My guess is that they started out with a product with those ingredients and a much higher pH and then changed the formula to make it a better product but have not changed the label.
This is what I am thinking as well. Also, just using Coconut Oil alone would not be a choice I would make as it would be very harsh on the skin and scalp as well!
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I cut and pasted your ingredients list into my browser and found the product line this comes from. I saw a listing for this product and nowhere did it say 5.5% pH but it did list 5.5% pH in the Argan oil product that they sell…
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“We use cookies for functional and analytical purposes and third party cookies for advertising purposes.” I don’t feel comfortable with this aspect of wetransfer.com.
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Unfortunately, I have limited data on my phones so I don’t think I can do this. However, if someone has a DropBox account I certainly can upload them to that if provided the link…just a thought!
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I sent out four emails to you who requested it but they all came back undelivered. When you download a link to a site onto your desktop you get an .html link and a folder with files in it. You click on the link and it gets you to that page on your browser. Because we all aren’t able to use the previous link I posted it would seem that we are blocked. The files I have do get you to that page only where you can download the book, chapter by chapter but I can’t email them to you and have to actually get them! The 13 files are large, up to 69MB. Sorry I don’t have a solution right now!
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All three emails I sent with zip files in them bounced back!
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KOH is typically at 90% so there would be a “built in” superfat for that if the 90% doesn’t happen to be calculated into your formula… just sayin’…
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vjay, sorry but your email was returned because of the enclosed zip file. I’ll see if I can figure this out…
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vjay, I mailed you a zip file. If you follow the directions it should bring you to the site (through the back door) and you should be able to download all the parts of the book. Please let us know if it works for you then we can pass it around! Good Luck!
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I managed to find another site that allows you to download cosmetic chemistry books! https://epdf.tips/queue/new-cosmetic-science.html I found two and one with some helpful information!
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It seems that the link is no longer working. I would guess that it was shut down because of all of the activity as a result of the post. It may reopen again and it may not. I have had trouble with surfing the web lately which I assume is a result of lots of online activity which may be part of the problem. Sorry I can’t assist but I’m glad many of you were able to benefit from the link posting!
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You are all very welcome! I have looked daily for Volume 7 but wasn’t successful until yesterday! I know how frustrating it can be to find something like this that has some good, solid information in it and even though it is not new it can still be helpful to many so I happily shared it! In this day and age message boards are not as popular as they used to be so I am grateful that Perry’s board is still active and popular and offers us the ability to share ideas and knowledge and has helped me a great deal in my projects and my quest to learn more! I hope you all have a happy and healthy holiday season and I appreciate hearing your thanks!
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Thanks, Belassi, I appreciate your kindness.
This
formula is of interest because I just checked the SAP values and found
that not only is Harry’s using a NaOH/KOH ratio of 5/1 (seems to be
standard) but has a superfat of exactly 10% which is higher than I
expected and although I could make assumptions of what it might read
below where the “snippet” view ends I don’t want to assume anything!
The Harry’s Cosmeticology Version 8, that someone kindly shared with me,
contains some useful information which I had overlooked before!“These
types of systems can pose problems during scale-up from laboratory to
manufacture. Attention to details such as mixing times, rates of addition,
cooling rates, and time of mixing after neutralization are crucial. Stability and product texture can be
adversely affected.” from Harry’s Cosmeticology Version 8″This explains why it is difficult to make changes in the formula and I was actually wise in making larger sample batches! The Water/oil(soap) ratio is also quite important here and you really can’t add ingredients to the oil(soap) phase and take it away from the water phase you actually have to ADD some to the water phase or shrink the rest of the original part of the oil(soap) phase to keep the same water/soap ratio the same! It’s a balancing act! -
I reposted this formula above:
“saleemSeptember 15, 2012 at 1:19 am
if you want to become a practical formulator of top industries including cosmetic ,soap industry and many more formulation then visit at
http://www.chemicalformulaservices.com
Here is a simple formulation of shaving cream with its simple procedure.
(A)
Stearic acid = 30.00%
Coconut oil = 10.00%
Palm Oil = 5.00%
(
Caustic potash = 7.00%
Soda caustic = 1.50%
Glycerin = 10.00%
water = 36.50%Process.
Part (A) and Part (
separately Heated in the vessels at 75 centigrade temp
After this mix both parts till it become homogeneously.
Add the perfume in the end at 35 centigrade.
It is a simple formulation which raw material easily available in the market.”It turns out that it is a formula from Harry’s Cosmetology!
Here is a snippet view of the post without completing the final lines:
I As you can see the last lines are cut off where it says “well until
saponification is complete. The remainder of the melted stearic acid
is” and the rest is missing. Does anyone have either Harry’s
Cosmeticology either 6th or 7th version? If so would you be so kind as
to look this up and post it here? I am SO curious about this formula
and I would greatly appreciate the help! Thanks! -
First, I would double check your SAP calculations for your formula and also look at the percentages of each fatty acid as some of the middle chain fatty acids may be more drying or irritating to the skin. You may have used too much KOH for the amount of fatty acids you have used, as 11 is too high for this type of product and a pH 9.0 -10 is possible for this type of product. Secondly, follow Perry’s advice regarding surfactant types and perhaps use them at a larger percentage than you may have originally planned to lower the soap phase percentage. Although the body has the ability to restore pH in a shorter period of time, the face needs more gentle cleansing and as several suggested, a surfactant based product may be more appropriate for the face. Good luck! PS - Did you leave some of the fatty acids unsaponified? (Superfatting the soap phase)
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Thank you both for your replies! I went on the “Wayback Machine” and looked up the newdirectionsaromatics website in 2007 and found this description:Botanical Name: Mentha Arvensis
Plant Part: Herb
Extraction Method: Steam
Origin: USA
Description: Menthol
Liquid is derived from the plant Mentha arvensis. This perennial herb
may grow up to 1 meter in height, and it has long, underground runners
by which it is easily propagated.
Color: Clear transparent slight pale yellow liquid that may solidify in winter or cool conditions.
Common Uses:
It has been used as a flavoring for centuries, but also has
applications in aromatherapy when applied to sore muscles or in
combination with other products such as in a pain relief balm. It is
often referred to as having a cooling effect.
Consistency: Light
Note: Top
Strength of Aroma: Strong, penetrating
Blends well with: Basil,
Bergamot, Cajeput, Cedarwood (All), Cypress (All), Eucalyptus, Lemon,
Lime, Mandarin, Marjoram (All), Niaouli, Pine (All), Rosemary (All),
Spearmint, Thyme (All)
Aromatic Scent: Menthol liquid is characterized by a clean, crisp mint smell.
History: While
Peppermint Essential Oils that have been derived from Mentha piperita
plants have a long history, Menthol Liquid has been a more recent
addition based on modern science. The natural process involves
dementholized Peppermint oil from which menthol has been removed by
crystallization.
Cautions: Menthol
can be sensitizing, particularly in concentrations. Aromatherapists
recommend that this product be used in moderation.
In StockThe problem with this listing is that it calls the product “Mentha Arvensis” rather than “mentha piperita” which is what is written on the bottle. If I had the paperwork I would check that out but I do have what is written above in bold to go by and the scent of the bottle which is quite strong even though it is old. I also am wondering if I should even bother trying this in a shaving cream or just either try Peppermint EO or just not do it at all!Thanks! -
Fumaric acid is also frequently used. Even though it is only divalent, fumaric acid is actually a more efficient neutralizer than citric acid on a weight basis. This can be seen by comparing the equivalent weights of these materials. However, fumaric acid is much less soluble than citric acid and thus gives a slower reaction than citric. Probably because of this difference in solubility, fumaric acid products tend to be a bit more stable than citric acid products. Adipic and malic acids are also commonly used in effervescent bath products. As with the choice of carbonate salt, the desired product performance and manufacturing method will guide the choice of acid. Not only will the choice of acid affect performance, but the ratio of acid to carbonate will also affect the product. In general, higher ratios of acid to carbonate will yield faster reactions. Also, higher ratios of acid will assure that the carbonate is completely reacted. If the acid does not at least stoichiometrically balance the carbonate, some carbonate will be left unreacted and it will settle to the bottom of the bathtub. In general, 1:1 weight ratios of acid to total carbonate are common. However, highly reactive, highly soluble systems can use acid to carbonate ratios as low as 1:10.
Beyond the reactive ingredients, aesthetic and functional materials are usually incorporated in effervescent products.
Fragrances and essential oils are virtually always included in these products. Typical levels are 0.5% to 3%. Product design and intended consumer use will guide perfume selection and level. Most fragrance houses can provide technical assistance in designing perfumes for use in effervescent products. They can formulate the oil to be compatible with effervescent bases by avoiding materials such as glycol solvents that may cause instability to occur by allowing partial dissociation of the acid or carbonate.
Color selection will depend upon the desired product performance and aesthetics. Most cosmetic colors work well in effervescent bases. If the product needs to color the bath water, use dyes. If coloring only the product itself is important, use lakes and/or pigments. Color stability, particularly in light, must be checked carefully.
Functional materials are included in virtually every effervescent product. The key is to choose materials that are anhydrous, otherwise stability problems will occur. Botanical materials such as freeze-dried aloe, chamomile extract in oil, and even dried flower buds and bulk herbs have been used in effervescent products. Levels used are generally less than 1 or 2%.
Emollient materials such as squalane, vitamin E, almond oil and many cosmetic esters are frequently incorporated, again, generally at 0.1% to 2%. Surfactants are used both as fragrance emulsifiers and as foamers. When used as emulsifiers, surfactants prevent the perfume oil from floating on the water’s surface. Many consumers prefer this since floating oil systems tend to be messy and hard to clean up. Typical emulsifiers are PEG-30 castor oil, Polysorbate 80 or 85 and Laureth 4. The precise choice will depend on the HLB of the perfume oil.
If surfactants are going to be used to create foam, special formulations are required to achieve consumer acceptable performance. Polymers can also be added to help modify skin feel and the feel of the bath water. Commonly used materials include Polyquaternium 10 and PEG. Levels are typically 0.2% to 3 or 4%. Binders are almost always needed to make good, solid effervescent tablets. Sorbitol, lactose and maltodextrin are usually used at levels ranging from 10-20%.
Process aides are materials that are added to help the powders flow more efficiently and to prevent sticking on the production equipment. The most frequently used of these materials are fumed silica, calcium silicate, cornstarch, and sometimes talc. In general, these materials work well when incorporated at only a few tenths of a percent. ”
Lab Rat”
In looking at your formula the thing I noticed that seemed like it may be a problem is the high percentage of salt! I would probably reduce that to at least half of that you are currently using and play with your formula until you get it right! I think it is getting in the way of the citric acid and sodium bicarbonate bonding together. JMHO
David
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“Bath Bombs” are a product that is meant to create a reaction between the acid and alkaline substances of baking soda and citric acid so they dissolve and “fizz” when used in the tub. There must be a certain ratio between the two and the late Maurice Hevey commented on this topic at the “Soap Dish Forum” in 2003 by saying:
“Apr 25 2003, 06:56 AMPost #3
forum guru 
Posts:
3,572
Joined: 24-November 02
When I was a kid, we made bottle bombs. When
you’re young, you are bullet proof. Ah! to be bullet proof again.The
following information was originally part of an article, “Multi-Sensory
Technologies for Today’s Effervescent Bath and Shower Products” wriiten by
Allen Rau. This article appeared in the October 2001 issue of Cosmetics &
Toiletries magazine and presents the basic technology and ingredients used in
the creation of effervescent bath and shower products.“The chemical
reaction that creates the fizz in effervescent bath and shower products is quite
simple. An acid is used to neutralize a carbonate salt. This releases carbon
dioxide (CO2) gas, the salt of the acid, and water. Obviously, the carbon
dioxide gas is the fizzing that characterizes effervescent products.There are a few points here that are not so obvious, but are very
important. First, water is needed to start the reaction. Without water, neither
the acid nor the carbonate can dissociate. If there is no dissociation, the
effervescent reaction cannot start. Once the reaction starts, however, it
generates more water. This means that effervescent products must be carefully
formulated, produced in appropriate environments and packed properly. Otherwise
their inherent instability can ruin them.Specifically, all raw
materials used in an effervescent product must be anhydrous (without water) and
must be stored so that they remain dry. The manufacturing environments where
these products are made must also be designed to maintain dryness. Typically
these facilities are dehumidified to less than 10%RH. To protect them from
ambient humidity, effervescent products are usually packaged in high barrier
foil and/or polymer films or in heavy-wall jars that contain desiccant packs.Since it is the source of the carbon dioxide, the carbonate salt is a
key material in an effervescent formula. The most commonly used carbonate salts
are sodium carbonate (soda ash) and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda).Sodium carbonate has a lower percentage of CO2 than bicarbonate and
since it requires 2 moles of acid per mole of the salt, it is slightly more
difficult to neutralize than baking soda. However, these attributes cause
products that are formulated with carbonate to be a bit more stable than those
that contain only bicarbonate.Bicarbonate has a higher proportion of
CO2 than soda ash and, due to its ability to easily break down, releasing water,
products formulated with it tend to react more quickly and be less stable than
carbonatebased products.Both carbonate and bicarbonate have advantages
and disadvantages. Therefore, most formulations use a blend of the two. 50/50 is
a typical ratio that generally achieves good reaction time and acceptable
stability.Although the sodium salts are the most commonly used
carbonates, potassium and magnesium carbonate can be used successfully in
effervescent products. The other key component in an effervescent composition is
the acid. It reacts with the carbonate salt, releasing the CO2 gas.The
most commonly used acid is citric acid. It is low cost, easily available, very
soluble and since it is trivalent, has good neutralizing power.
… more -
I checked out the glass in the last photo and it is made by Anchor Hocking. Here is a link to their website which explains the change from “borosilicate glass to tempered soda-lime-silicate glass.”
https://www.oneida.com/customerservice/bakeware_facts/
Interesting! They say that this is better then he borosilicate glass!
I usually use metal pots for everything but in the case of those smaller formulas and test batches that was what I opted for back then!
David
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Of course it is… if you are making castile which is often very high in Olive Oil or made totally of Olive Oil. As I said before, it is about 81-82% Oleic Acid which makes a very water soluble soap but Castor is even better in that respect. The question is how long does saponification take with such a liquid product? Quite a while, I would think! The more “paste” type of method happens much more quickly…