DaveStone
Forum Replies Created
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Perry said:@DaveStone - Deep conditioning treatments work to make hair feel smoother, look shinier, and comb more easily. But the protein in them has little to do with it. They work because of cationic surfactants, cationic polymers and silicones.Hydrolyzed keratin is water soluble and rinses down the drain when hair is rinsed. The tiny bit of protein that might be left behind has no proven beneficial effect.
But it makes for a better story to tell people protein is improving the condition of your hair rather than synthetic silicones or cationic surfactants.
What about those keratin straightening systems? Is it really just formaldehyde doing the job? I suppose, like you said, it’s better to tell people that protein is straightening their hair rather than embalming fluid.
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vitalys said:
Interesting…in that third article it says “Protease activity does not elevate
if a mild cleanser that does not increase skin-surface-pH is used”. But I thought even mild cleansers raise the skin PH? Dove Sensitive Skin Bar is neutral. I don’t know what the PH of the Cerave is. I haven’t found any 4-6 PH cleansers. And someone in another thread said it wouldn’t matter anyhow as you’re rinsing with water, thus raising the PH of the skin. Hmm. -
Are there any studies that show a long-term noticeable effect on the skin from using soap?
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PhilGeis said:Microbial content of water is dynamic. Cepacia, ~ the most common cause of recall, can grow to millions in a day in distilled water. Water is the most problematic ingredients - you don’t know micro quality at formulation until days after the product is made and packaged.Where do you get your distilled water?Does it matter if it’s not totally pure if you have a good preservative system that actively combats these microbes?
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Perry said:What effect is it supposed to have?
Protein is water soluble and unless you don’t rinse, it is washed away without doing anything.
Are you saying then that deep conditioning treatments (usually with hydrolyzed keratin) don’t work? Is there no way to infuse the hair with protein so that it can’t wash away?
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Is castile (olive oil) soap anionic?
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zetein said:@vitalys In practical terms I am going to rinse with tap water which is pH 7-8 anyway. So the pH only affect the washing/lathering process, afterwards, hardly. The rinsing would bring up the pH of post-wash skin to ~7 regardlessly.But if that’s the case, then you might as well wash your face with Irish Spring or baking soda…I think the PH of the soap still has an effect on your face, regardless of the water.
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Abdullah said:Yes. They don’t clean as well as anionic
That leads me to another question…are nonionic or amphoteric surfactants sufficient for daily facial cleansing? I could see if you haven’t washed your face in a week or so, then maybe something stronger is warranted. Does it take much to get a face clean, that hasn’t been washed in 12-42 hours? Is a mild surfactant strong enough to rid the skin of previously applied moisturizer/lotion?
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Abdullah said:
I personally don’t like amphoteric or non-ionic surfactant as main surfactant.
Because of their performance? -
Abdullah said:Dove has high foaming mild anionic surfactant as main surfactant. Cerave has mild amphoteric surfactant as main surfactant.
I think cerave would be milder for protein and dove for lipids
Which is easier for the skin to replenish, protein or lipids?
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Abdullah said:No foam has no relationship with mildness. If in theory the mildness of both are the same in practice the one with more foam will be milder because you would use less of that.
Skin pH is 4.7. is the pH of those products 4.7?
If you write the ingredients list we would know which one is milder
Cerave Facial Cleanser: Aqua / Water / Eau, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine, Glycerin, Sodium
Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Peg-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Niacinamide,
Peg-6 Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate,
Propylene Glycol, Ceramide NP, Ceramide AP, Ceramide EOP, Carbomer,
Methylparaben, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Cholesterol,
Disodium EDTA, Propylparaben, Citric Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA, Hydrolyzed
Hyaluronic Acid, Phytosphingosine, Xanthan Gum.Dove Beauty Bar: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Oleate, Water (Eau), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Glycerin, Sodium Laurate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Kaolin or (ou) Titanium Dioxide. -
Microformulation said:
Well, yes, I’m aware of that. But the studies linked above have found other uses for it. It would be capable of denaturing hair keratin.
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According to a study of Keratineses, this Ronozyme ProAct could straighten hair (better in conjunction with sodium thioglycolate).
This patent also depicts a keratinase from that study
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8413666B2/en -
abierose said:@DaveStone I was thinking more along the lines of the perm changing/damaging the structure of the hair follicle…
That’s what I meant…I doubt those chemicals, especially in a relatively short amount of time, could permanently do such a thing. They react differently with dead material (hair) than with living organisms (follicles). I’m sure the others here with a background in this field can answer more adequately.
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Can urea denature alpha-keratin?
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abierose said:Would older (30 years ago) home perm kits have any of the aforementioned chemicals and if so, is it possible those chemicals could permanently alter the way ones hair grows? My hair was as straight as straight could be up until I was about 11 years old when a family “friend” permed my hair and since then my hair is wavy…and yes, I remember the smell…yuck! ????
Old perm kits, according to my research, used the same ingredients they do now. I don’t know how it could permanently alter your hair structure. Only a gene mutation could presumably do that.
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Pharma said:…whilst alpha-keratin denaturation is.
And what chemical would achieve this?
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chemicalmatt said:I would reassess the technique here. That ORS kit has guanidine hydroxide as its lanthionizing agent, and as Perry points out that is not as good as NaOH but will still bust apart 85% of those cystine bonds if properly used. 1) wash the hair thoroughly, 2) always apply to DRY hair only, 3) apply evenly from root to tips, starting at the crown, 4) if straightening is insufficient, leave on longer, the 20 minute “safety limit” is just that: if your wife can tolerate the stinging pain, that product will eventually straighten her hair - quite permanently too. A common mistake is application to wet hair or hair treated with something other than a formulated pre-treatment. You will notice that NONE of the pre-treats contains water, all are glycol based. Water swells the hair, increasing the diameter. Think of the straightening process as a race to the cortex from outside the shaft through the cuticle. Anything that increases the hair diameter increases the time to the cortex where the cystine links are. I’ve developed and manufactured over a million kilograms of hair relaxer over the years (yes, you read that correctly). My only complaint is the damn market crashed when the Natural Hair Movement took hold 10 years ago. That money-maker went south!
She followed all those instructions, though. She did leave it on past the maximum 18-20 minute mark. Said it was 23 min. She wanted to wash it off by then out of fear of the damage it might do to her hair. Thing is, it looked straight at the time. When she smoothed it, it was straight. A few washes later and it’s back to her normal.
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Pharma said:There are other thiols emerging… as @Perry mentioned, most smell acrid and sulphurous, others are nearly without odour but are too expensive for cosmetic applications (dithiothreitol -> probably the best you can get, commonly used in research because it doesn’t alter the chemical structure beyond clean disulfide cleavage nor forms disulfide bonds with cysteine as do most others).I read it had an odour but wasn’t aware it was that bad! Is it anything like an ammonia smell? Neither by wife or myself can tolerate ammonia.It’s a shame chemicals that actually work better, and without the odor, have to be exorbitantly priced. Doing some googling, I don’t see many articles about dithiothreitol used for straightening purposes. I found some info however on page 18 of this article:
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I just read that perm solutions use thioglycolate. Apparently, the addition of rods or pins is the only thing making the hair curl. I wonder why they aren’t widely used to straighten hair…provided they are considerably cheaper than a Japanese straightening at a salon.
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Perry said:Yes, the lye version would work better. No lye generally is less effective.
It’s not surprising that it starts out straight but slowly reverts. That just means the bonds were not permanently broken and neutralized. It was simply being straightened via hydrogen bonding (like when you use a flat iron to straighten hair).So, while the lye version may have a longer lasting effect, do you agree with Pharma that lye doesn’t actually cause a permanent alteration? My wife once got some Japanese straightening thing at a salon, which was really expensive, though it lasted until new hair grew out. According to an article I just read, thioglycolate is the active.
Pharma said:@DaveStone It should. Like: No-lye generelly contains other bases and does work in a similar way (ORS is alkaline). No, the effect using a base is not permanent (it’s mostly just swelling) and hair structure reverts back after several weeks. Using a thioglycolate based relaxer is more effective because it does change the hair’s structure (alkaline versions can too… when left on too long and the hair gets damaged beyond repair).All in that text
.Thank you for the info, but the wiki didn’t really state outright that either lye or no-lye relaxers are only temporary. The products (like ORS) and the people who use them claim it gets their hair pin-straight, and lasts until new growth occurs. So when you read all that you would think it works. I still don’t understand why afro-textured hair seems easier to relax than medium curly hair.Meanwhile, I’ll tell her to try the lye or thio relaxers, though I can’t find the latter anywhere online. I wonder why it’s not available for DIY purchase. -
Perry said:George says that the optimal pH is 6.0 for Niacinamide.
https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/294/pcc-benefits-niacinamide/I don’t know if I agree but he may have looked into the subject more than me. I do know that I’ve never seen any real data that shows matching the “skin’s natural pH” has any impact on the performance of anything. It’s just a marketing gimmick as far as I’m concerned.
Yeah, I read you don’t want to go below 5.5-6 for niacinamide…though I’ve found no information on what the highest PH limit is for it. I don’t know what would happen at 7.5I would assume a ph below 5 or above 8 would be bad for your skin in a leave-on product. It seems most mass-produced toners/lotions are formulated at 5.5-6. Just like syndet bars, such as Dove, are formulated at around the same PH.
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jemolian said:For being a good “occlusive”, it depends on what factor you want to compare it against since there’s TEWL or permeability to look at.
The “PEG” normally means that it would be water soluble to a certain point, that being a surfactant / emulsifier.
You can look into the different skin feel based on the different silicone types, for example liquid vs crosspolymers.
Makingcosmetics do list the recommended type of product for the ingredients, so for amodimethicone, it’s a blend for hair conditioning.
I read that you could apply this directly on the skin like you would a butter or petrolatum. Seems pretty convenient. Yet in the SDS, it says to wash off skin if contact occurs. I’m confused.