[Cosmetic_Chemist]

It is supposed to be a water-based massage oil..I know I am very lost on their formula too

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

The water-soluble CBD is extremely expensive which is why the client wants to see if we can somehow get the isolate to work.

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Thank you so much! I am going to try out the new version and will report results once I hear back from the client! 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

water - Qs
Hydroxyethylcellulose - 0.75%
Propanediol - 5%
Glycerin - 3%
Sodium Benzoate - 0.4%
Phenoxyethanol - 0.3%
EDTA - 0.1%
Aloe Vera Juice - 0.05%

Would this be a better formula? 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

It is an adult novelty product and will be used down under. 

Would this current formula likely cause a yeast infection?

If i use Phenoxyethanol and EDTA instead of current preservatives, would I get a better result?

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

It just needs to be clean at Sephora

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

pH will be 4-5 

pH will be adjusted with citric acid. I will also be adding Sodium Phytate as a cheleter/booster. 

@MarkBroussard
 Which antibacterial do you recommend instead of potassium sorbate?

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

This makes miso happy! 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Thank you @Pharma and @MarkBroussard! 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Thank you everyone! 

I will try switching Coco Glucoside as the primary surfactant and report what I get. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

The customer does not want me to use anything besides these two as the base, something about their definition of ‘clean’ and ‘natural’. Is it unlikely to work? I was very skeptical as well but thought i’d get another opinion. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Microformulation said:

I worked with a company where they billed the MOQ’s based on a scoring system of 1 to 3.

Class 1 was a product that you would most likely use regardless. They may even already be in stock. (For example Glycerin).

Class 2 was a product we didn’t carry usually but we could develop opportunities to use the material. Oftentimes we would use the remaining raw materials in our Private Label programs.

Class 3 was something you knew was going to sit in Supply forever and unless they did subsequent runs, it was likely to be discarded. We would bill the full amount of the purchase to the client.

I love this breakdown! Thank you @Microformulation,  I think this will help explain the costs to the customer with utmost clarity! 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

MarkBroussard said:

@Cosmetic_Chemist:

A good way to resolve this problem is to charge the client upfront for the MOQ of a superfluous, non-stock, label ingredient … Say the ingredient supplier’s MOQ for an extract of dubious efficacy is 20KG, but you will only need to use 1KG in the production run.  Charge the client upfront for the entire 20KG as a separate line item.  Usually when you explain the cost/benefit of the inclusion of a particular ingredient, in particular label ingredients, the client having to pay for it upfront usually gives them a different perspective on the investment.

Thank you @MarkBroussard, we are trying to charge them upfront with the promise that material will be on hold for their products. The second you mention more money though, everyone’s guard goes up and sometimes this can be the reason we don’t close. 

It is easier to convince new clients to abide by this but asking existing clients is like banging your head into a wall. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

I am both happy and sad to hear there are others struggling between the two.. 

I work as a chemist for a contract manufacturer and can 100% agree with what Microformulation said:

@GeorgeBenson I will give you an exercise to see. Have your overly complicated products priced out for commercial manufacturing. CM’s are not charities and these material costs as well as the impact of MOQ’s will be billed to you. There are valid supply chain issues as well as inflationary forces causing these materials to increase in cost. My inbox is filled with price updates from suppliers on a nearly weekly basis. So, when you sit down with a manufacturer and determine your costs to run a minimum piece count of 1,250, expect a big invoice for multiple overlapping materials. In most cases, this will be your moment of truth.

Whatever you put in, you have to pay for. At some point, you will need to take Business Practices into account as well.

It has become increasingly difficult to educate brands on why a minimalist approach to formulations is better. Everyone claims to be an expert and wants us formulate as per their understanding of materials…which sometimes is absolute nonsense! I have had people come to me with articles (Not scientific, mind you) with the expectation that we can replicate their idea of ‘Natura’ cosmetics with unrealistic formulas. 

The ‘Ingredient list is too small thus must be inefficient’ is an argument I have had too many times. We usually end up having to procure large MOQs of unnecessary materials that do absolutely nothing in terms of product experience. It is painful sitting on 200kgs of inventory of a material that we only need to use 1kg of (that too an unnecessary addition). 

One thing that has helped me close many of these problematic brands is by adding extract blends (usually 5-8 in one blend) at minimal concentrations just to make the ingredient deck more attractive. 4 out of 5 times that helps ease their mind. 

Another thing that has helped is withholding the ingredient deck until they physically try the sample. This is also helpful because they test the product with an open mind. Previously we used to share it as soon as the sample was sent out but that always resulted in these conversations. 

Once again, happy that I am not the only one suffering! Misery loves company!

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Thank you @PhilGeis for your response! 

By content testing do you mean micro testing? Would there be a problem if I do add a preservative, Phenoxyethanol for example, to it even with 40% alcohol?

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Hi @Gordof,

Thank you so much for your help. I was very confused as to how to proceed and your explanation really helped clear some of that out. 

The customer want OECD 301D to be conducted on the whole formulation and I was just informed by a lab that they can do that. I would prefer to test the surfactants only but this is how they want it to be. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

UPDATE: 

Crothix is too expensive and even after 10% desired viscosity was not achieved. 

Thank you for your recommendation on the preservative system, we are still exploring other options and will be sure to remember your comments!

I am still waiting on the Phosphate thickener and will let you know if that or any other material works!

Thank you!

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Paprik said:

Just a couple of thing to your formula. 

Iselux Mild -
Aqua (and) Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate (and) Cocamidopropyl Betaine (and) Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate (and) Lauryl Glucoside (and) Coco-Glucoside

It has all surfactants. Not sure why adding more Cocamidopropyl Betaine?
Also, Isethionates and Taurates should thicken with salt present. Have you tried adding NaCl in 0.3 - 0.5% increments? Add after you adjust your pH to > 6. This may also help. 

Not sure how much of the ingredients are you using. Percentages are really useful for us. 

Totopherol acetate is pointless. It is not antioxidant for the essential oil, only for skin. However, in wash off products? No point. Change it for “normal” Tocopherol. 

I was hoping more Betaine would thicken the soap as well. I tried salt but found little difference. 

Iselux Mild - 75%
Cocamidopropyl Betaine - 25%
Glycerin - 1%
Citric Acid pH 6-7
Phenoxyethanol - 0.6
Essential Oil - 0.2% for fragrance

GeorgeBenson said:

I have used Iselux Ultra Mild and did not find salt to work very well to thicken it. Iselux SFS on the other hand is very easily thickened with salt.

I have had success using HPMC, Polyquaternium-10, and Sorbithix to thicken. There are many PEG-type thickeners too such as crothix but I haven’t used those. 

Xanthan will thicken but I find even the soft grade does give it an undesirable (to some) texture as well as making it harder to rinse off.

Also, just using a higher percentage of ultra mild will make for a much thicker soap.

Thank you, I think I will definitely try with methocel and polyquat-10. I am already using a super high conc of iselux, anything beyond this would be out of budget. 

I have used iselux before and had no problem. The challenge this time is to make the 10% concentrate instead of the regular 30-40%. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Paprik said:

Why do you think HEC is not compatible with cocamidopropyl betaine? 
I checked some example formulations from suppliers and they are using it along with HEC.
(However I do have some issues with HEC now too. I actually made a post not long ago. Waiting for some help).

For surfactant systems it is recommended to use hydroxypropyl methylcellulose aka Methocel. 

You could use Xanthan Gum, but I would rather choose higher grade, otherwise you’ll end up with snotty stringy looking product. 

If you could also share your formula, we would be able to take a look and give you some tips.  

Currently its just a base formula:

Iselux Mild
Cocamidopropyl Betaine
Glycerin
Citric Acid
Phenoxyethanol
Aloe Vera Gel
Tocopherol Acetate
Essential Oil - 0.2% for fragrance

I might add some conditioning agents later on once I have a better idea about the base. 

I will try methocel and hydroxypropyl starch phosphate. Thank you so much! 
Let me know if the formula calls for another one. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Thank you so much everyone! I was very lost when I initially posted the discussion but all your responses have been a huge help! 

@MarkBroussard I just looked at their guidelines and feel a lot more comfortable about naturally derived ingredients! Thank you very much! I really appreciate it!

@Perry Your reasoning for olefin sulfonate makes sense, I didn’t think in that direction. I hate how much misinformation is out there regarding cosmetics and how limiting it can be as a formulator to satisfy all these claims and still provide a performing product. 

You’re absolutely right about how these products are not better for the environment. I especially hate how these ‘eco-friendly’ and ‘natural’ products are going to be filled into plastic containers.

Instead of finding ways to make a formulation more natural, I think our efforts would be better spent finding more sustainable packing solutions. 

As for making the claims for the customers, I think I will go ahead with using the NPA guidelines for naturally derived ingredients.

Once again, thank you so much everyone! 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

Perry said:

My question too@PhilGeis.  

What would not qualify as animal, plant or mineral?

In my opinion everything is naturally derived because anything that is not from nature is supernatural.

But if you restrict yourself to only molecules that exist in nature then an olefin sulfonate would not in any stretch of the imagination be natural.

I was thinking something like fragrances or tetra sodium EDTA would not be classified as natural. 

Follow up question, isn’t olefin sulfonate derived from coconuts? Wouldn’t that be okay to call natural?

I really appreciate everyone helping out! I hate how vague these claims are and always struggle to make any with integrity. 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

So if I were to say X% of the formulation has natural origins’ would I be making a fair statement to address natural formulations? Given I also explain natural origins means derived from plants animals or minerals? 

For example, for surfactants I use sodium c14-16 olefin sulfonate, Cocamidopropyl betaine and coco glucoside - all derived from coconut. 
Can I say these have natural origins? 

I just don’t want the customer to come back accusing me of giving false claims..

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

JonahRay said:

This is just water and HEC, so 1% HEC in water.

I’m not sure what end product you are making but if it is just water and HEC could you be mistaking the high viscosity for stickiness? 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

What else are you adding to the formulation? 

[Cosmetic_Chemist]

I would say it depends on the concentration and also the type of formulation (leave in or rinse off). A rinse off product with 1% for example might just be ineffective against all types of acne.  

Very generally, I think it works best for mild acne (blackheads and whiteheads). 

If you want to counter the very inflamed pus-filled pimples I would suggest trying out Benzoyl Peroxide instead.

Be careful about the claims you make if you want it to be cosmetic grade.