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@Microformulation thanks! i know the difference between “soap” and surfactant-based shampoo.

but why does the specific formula, made with synthetic surfactants have to contain saponified oils?

why can’t it simply use contain surfactants + unsaponified oil? 

it seems to be quite alkaline in PH, thus it can’t be great for the hair? 

sorry, fairly newbie here. 

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@MarkBroussard strangely the coco glucoside irritated me more than the decyl glucoside. if decyl is a known allergen, why do major baby shampoo companies like SheaMoisure Baby, Pipette Baby; LiveClean Baby all use it as their primary surfactant?!

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@ozgirl   yes, I did remove CAP hydroxysultaine…and made a basic shampoo with only decyl + coco glucoside at 7-8ASM. Added some cationic guar gum too. My body itches went away, but the race rash (although less bad as it had been with CAP hydroxysultaine) reappeared. no sensitization anywhere else on the body. so the glucosides do slightly irritate me. 

i do think i have sensitization to hydroxysultaine possibly due to the impurities..it just makes me want to itch… so ill be sticking with just nonionics/glucosides.

im still trying to figure out how to make a glucoside-only formulation less irritating. any ideas? i have cationic guar gum already, and glycerol oleate though i notice it suppresses foam. 

 @Abdullah thank you for that! i didnt know that was the actual formulation list.

@Perry I tried Shea Moisture Baby Shampoo recently which lists Decyl / Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate as their top ingredients…I had basically no sensitization to that shampoo. 
the difference between my shampoo and theirs is that mine has fewer ingredients, no claims ingredients, lower surfactant concentration… meanwhile theirs contains a whole list of extracts, oils..claims ingredients..

Perhaps i should add more claims ingredients to mine, it might help increase the mildness? 

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are you experiencing the same problem with these exact surfactants?

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thanks for the tips @Abdullah ! the issue is i only itch/get the tingles after I shower/day after. If I don’t shower, the itches go away. The symptoms are pretty muchh immediate so I doubt it is a fungal infection.

That said, I tried hydroxysultaine at a low percentage and it seemed better. It only starts itching If I use at 10%+

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@ozgirl no preservative. Maybe similar to CAPB, coca hydroxysultaine has contaminants? I have particularly sensitive skin

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@Abdullah thank you for your questions and help!

1. Are these percentages that you are writing active surfactants or actual surfactant that has water?   The second. Not ASM. 
If active surfactant then %25 is too high.
If actual surfactant then less than %5 is too little and cant clean you.

2. As ozgirl said what is your preservative? None, I make it and use it within 3 days.

3. Why are you showering 2x/day with Shampoo? To test my shampoo iterations!  

4. If you want your Shampoo to be able to clean you use anionic surfactant around %10 AS. I’ve tried putting as low as 5% SCI (not active matter), inclwater, in my liquid shampoo and it dried out my face, body, SO badly (and my fforrmula had coconut oil, cationic guar).

I have particularly sensitive skin, scalp. 

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i melt it in the coconut oil over a double boiler, then combine with the other surfactants. are you suggesting it could be the culprit depending on the way i prepare it? @Cafe33

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I thought that nonionics rinse off well in hard water, do not really bind to skin protein and therefore more ‘mild’? 

could the amphoteric cocomidapropyl hydroxysultaine be giving me the itchy tingles? Forgot to mention I adjusted my PH to 4.5 on all versions. 

Should I make a shampoo using ONLY nonionics? 

Or is it because my shampoos are too minimalist? should I up my percentages of fatty alcohols, polymers? Should I try adding more nonionic surfactant combo like coco-glucoside in addition to the decyl glucoside? 

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thank you for that super clear description! so my take is to use a concentration well above the cmc to account for the possibility people will dilute.

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this is helpful, thank you @Perry. but why is it suggested that 2+ anionics should be combined to increase mildness? 

why is SCI + Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate + CAPB theoretically more mild than say just SCI + CAPB? 

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@Bill_Toge my question above..apologies for the ignorance, I am certainly not a chemist! 

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Bill_Toge said:

I should think it’s very unlikely; I’ve certainly never heard of that occurring

I read that non-ionic materials can inactivate organic acid preservatives. And given the butters/oils are non ionic, I thought they might cause that. 

Or do they mean non-ionic surfactants specifically ? Excluding butters fatty acids etc

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Graillotion said:

Thank you Phil.

Another way I like to look at these scenarios, and maybe this will help those just starting out…. Is understanding what a challenge test is.  Let’s just live in the land of unicorns and candy canes for a moment, and say we created a bug free product.  Then we sent this ‘pristine’ product off to be tested.  If you are not familiar with the process….essentially they pollute (inoculate) your pristine product with a number of nasties.  The object of the game is for your product to eliminate these nasties, and return to the original pristine state. 
So if your only focus is on creating something initially without bugs…you have totally missed the point.  Yes…that is a wonderful starting point, but the real game is a products ability to fend off bugs that are introduced over the expected life of the product.

Graillotion said:

Thank you Phil.

Another way I like to look at these scenarios, and maybe this will help those just starting out…. Is understanding what a challenge test is.  Let’s just live in the land of unicorns and candy canes for a moment, and say we created a bug free product.  Then we sent this ‘pristine’ product off to be tested.  If you are not familiar with the process….essentially they pollute (inoculate) your pristine product with a number of nasties.  The object of the game is for your product to eliminate these nasties, and return to the original pristine state. 
So if your only focus is on creating something initially without bugs…you have totally missed the point.  Yes…that is a wonderful starting point, but the real game is a products ability to fend off bugs that are introduced over the expected life of the product.

Thanks for the easy to understand explanation! very much appreciated. 

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PhilGeis said:

Climatechangeanxiety said:

@PhilGeis ok, so then I’ll try Sodium Benzoate, seems to be the popular rec on this board! Separately, do you think my use of maltodextrin makes it a greater “bug food” source, therefore might I need to increase my percentage of preservative?

Thank you in advance for your expertise! 

Assume you mean Na benzoate with benzyl alcohol?  I’d add EDTA and would not be that concerned that maltodextrin is bug food as much as its effect on preservatives.   Cepacia can grow in distilled water.

What might be maltodextrin’s effect on preservatives? 

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@Graillotion living in the US. I will use boiled water and a chelator as suggested. I’m worried the maltodextrin in my formula might make it a more enticing environment for bacteria/whatnot…would I need to use a greater amount of preservative to counter that? Thank you in advance. 

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@PhilGeis ok, so then I’ll try Sodium Benzoate, seems to be the popular rec on this board! Separately, do you think my use of maltodextrin makes it a greater “bug food” source, therefore might I need to increase my percentage of preservative?

Thank you in advance for your expertise! 

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@Pharma
Thank you, so are you saying:

Assuming I use faucet/tap water to make my shampoo, I should probably be good with a preservative system against bacteria and mold if I use:

Benzyl Alcohol-DHA + Potassium Sorbate

And secondly, would I HAVE to use GLDA? 

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Thank you, wanted to mention that I’d like to use some of the more eco-friendly/eco-certified preservatives like Benzyl Alcohol-DHA, potassium sorbate. The chloromethylisothiazolinone honestly sounds a bit intimidating..

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@ngarayeva001 thanks for the input! I am wondering whether those 1% “marketing” ingredients this forum speaks of (xyz extracts, panthenol) might actually be useful beyond marketing…would they have any noticeable impact in making the shampoo more mild? 

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I think I am allergic to glucosides.. But to make my surfactant blend more “gentle”, which nonionic surfactant do you suggest I use? I have virgin hair that tends to run dry. I also haven’t used a preservative because I put my shampoo in the fridge and use it up quickly. @Belassi  

does using 2 or more anionics make shampoo more “mild” than 1 anionic alone? Since it’s all negative charge I thought it makes it more aggressive? Or is it the addition of amphoteric + non ionic that tames the anionic?

Thank you in advance. I might give sodium cocoyl glutamate a shot.

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Yes, the remainder is water. I tried adding decyl glucoside yesterday to the surfactant mix and my after shower hair was poofier than ever while drying. And bit staticky too! My wrist also started itching. 

Would trying another nonionic surfactant make my blend more mild? 

So far I have 

SMCT powder- anionic 
SCI powder - anionic 
cocoyl hydroxysultaine - amphoteric
- add a nonionic surfactant?- like coco or lauryl glucoside?