Camel
Forum Replies Created
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How much Vitamin E are you adding and what surfactant are you using and at what rate?
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I would say remove the collagen amino acids and choose one oil and one protein to keep, so you are left with something like:
Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PVP, Glycerin, Propanediol, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Oil, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate, Carbomer, Triethanolamine, Citric Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA
You could also add fragrance.
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How do you think the industry can improve consumer education on the safety and necessity of preservatives in cosmetics? Or do you think the trend of exploiting consumer fears and misconceptions about these ingredients is too deeply embedded in their business models to shift towards a more transparent, science-based approach to communication?
It feels like the tactics of fearmongering have become so extreme, they should require legal regulation. The situation with the EWG is particularly amusing yet concerning. Although I find it funny that none of the ingredients I own or use in my formulas are on their “acceptable” list, considering they are often the top search result for an ingredient by INCI, I can see how this could be damaging to brands that use those ingredients. This makes me wonder whether its possible for emerging brands to correct these misconceptions without compromising their brand narrative.
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Hello @chemicalmatt
Thank you for sharing this resource!
I have been interested in experimenting with Cola®Quat SME (Soyethyl Morpholinium Ethosulfate) in a room/car spray to add odor neutralizing properties and the price is much more reasonable than the few repackers I have seen selling it.
I saw an old thread where you mentioned you have experience working with this ingredient and was hoping I could ask you: when used in a fragrant spray, is the performance/strength of the fragrance diminished by it? I am assuming the answer is yes, so my follow-up question is: how significant is the reduction in strength of the fragrance in your experience?
Thanks again!
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I have successfully thickened a shampoo that had Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, and Decyl Glucoside as the surfactants using Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose in the past. I think it would be a great choice for you, and it may also function as a foam booster/stabilizer.
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…and conditioning seems easier than shampooing
I think making a shampoo is easier and less complex than making a conditioner.
…1,3-Butylene Glycol (Humectant/Fragrance solubilizer) 1-10%??
I would start at 1%; 10% seems rather high. You don’t necessarily need a fragrance solubilizer in an emulsified product.
For my primary conditioning agent, I plan to use Cationic Guar Gum…
Cationic Guar Gum is more of a secondary conditioning agent (although I suppose it could be considered the primary in a conditioning shampoo). The usage rate is typically between 0.1-0.3%.
I can’t help but feel like I am completely missing an important part of a rinse-off conditioner…
Yes, you are missing the cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols. In the Pantene conditioner you mentioned, they are using a combination of Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine (technically a fatty amine) and Dicetyldimonium Chloride (a cationic surfactant/quaternary ammonium compound) as the primary conditioning agents. They are also using a combination of stearyl alcohol and cetyl alcohol as their fatty alcohols.
I have considered bamboo extract as a silicone replacement as well. What is the most effective in this situation ignoring cost? Is jojoba oil a consideration as well?
I don’t believe either of those ingredients will give you the results of silicones (very few, if any, will). If you want to add jojoba oil or other plant/seed oils, i would recommend keeping it between 0-2% total. For a closer silicone alternative, I think you will want to try LexFeel N350. I have never used it before but I’ve seen it talked about on here. I have used Plantasens Olive LD in my conditioners at 1-2% and had good results with that.
Should I give any credence to any of the extra additives like B5 or histidine, it’s all going to get washed out in this case right?
From what I’ve gathered, these are all mostly being rinsed down the drain. It may be possible to formulate in a way that allows greater deposition of B5 on the hair in a rinse-off product, but the difference is probably not noticable anyway.
…this is just a fun hobby for me right now, I welcome any level of rigor concerning chemistry/physics.
It is for me as well, so keep in mind that I am not a professional and most of my formulating knowledge has come from reading the posts of the actual experts on here (I recommend reading as many old threads on here as possible). Wishing you success and conditioned hair!
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What is your procedure for incorporating the hydroxyethylcellulose?
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It will be hard to advise you without knowing the formula or list of ingredients at the least. Have you tried adding a polymer like hydroxypropyl methylcellulose?
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It is a moisturizer that you apply on wet skin before exiting the shower and drying off. The only two I have tried and seen at drug stores (in the US) are the NIVEA IN-SHOWER BODY LOTION and the JERGENS Weightless Wet Skin Moisturizer.
They claim it is a water-activated formula, but I don’t really see anything in the ingredients list that would make it different from a regular body lotion.
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@HeathFor
I have never worked with BTMS-80 before, so I am unable to speak about it. However, if you are simply looking for a palm-free alternative to BTMS, you may consider CosmeGreen ES1822+ with the INCI: Arachidyl/Behenyl Betainate Esylate (and) Arachidyl/Behenyl Alcohol.
It is available from Valerie at Simply Ingredients. I have made a few rinse-off conditioners with this ingredient in the past and was happy with their performance. Keep in mind you will also need to have lactic acid and sodium lactate on hand to work with it (there are instructions on the linked page).
simply-ingredients.com
Create lightweight, conditioning emulsions for hair! This 100% bio-based, cationic conditioner has superior smoothing, conditioning and detangling benefits. It can be used as a replacement or alternative to Behentrimonium Chloride (BTMC) or Behentrimonium Methosulfate (BTMS)—perfect for those looking for palm … Continue reading
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I was hoping you would respond! I have never attempted to make a deodorant myself, but I have seen several discussions on the topic by you, and I find them interesting to read.
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Interesting. I feel like people have used regular spray deodorant all over for a long time, especially teenage boys, which is where the meme about Axe comes from. But if the marketing works, it works!
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I remember an advertisement from Axe like this, too! I imagine these whole body versions just have a lighter fragrance, if anything.
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You make some very great points! Marketing does often revolve around selling hope through products, which, when properly formulated, essentially perform the same functions (e.g., shampoos cleanse, conditioners soften). I think the real issue is the use of fearmongering and misinformation to boost sales. Exaggerating the benefits of ingredients like Bamboo Extract or Blueberry Seed Oil in your shampoo and conditioner, even at minimal usage levels, is one thing. However, I think it becomes very problematic when brands falsely claim that ingredients like DMDM Hydantoin will make your hair fall out, or that parabens will harm your reproductive health. It is the difference between selling hope and selling fear, and the latter is what I think needs to be legally regulated. Thank you for offering your thoughts on this!
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@mikethair I certainly respect your position and approach to the matter. As a Palestinian, I know the cultural significance of oils and traditional soap very well, and I still order my traditional olive oil (“Nabulsi”) soap bars and liquid soap directly from Palestine, which I mostly use for washing my hands but occasionally the body as well.
However, I don’t think we can consider this a true solution to preservatives, because there are many products that cannot be replaced with just oils and soap, or even if they could, there would still be a large segment of consumers who prefer the synthetic detergents and moisturizers over the traditional soap and face/body oils.
For example, I have personally tried to replace my shampoo and conditioner with soap and oil, but the results were far from pleasant with my very thick, curly hair—although I do believe it works for some people. Nonetheless, I appreciate your response!
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@Perry44 , I definitely agree with you! My curiosity was sparked by the number of formulators on here that I’ve noticed are particularly avoidant in using traditional preservatives, despite the significant decrease in efficacy, challenges of formulating with, and lack of robust safety data for the alternative, “natural” preservatives used instead. The first thing I did was visit my local Walmart and Target and check what preservatives are being used by the best-selling brands taking up the most retail space and what I noticed is that most of them are still using isothiazolinones and parabens. I also noticed that sulfate surfactants are still in favor in these products, too.
I do, however, wonder how different the story would be if I went to a Sephora or Ulta Beauty store and did this. Perhaps the desire to formulate without traditional preservatives (or sulfate surfactants and the like) is in order to gain access to those retail spaces that command higher price tags than drug store brands?
As a consumer, I never paid any attention to the preservatives used in a product, or any of the ingredients on the label for that matter. What I did look at was the packaging and message conveyed on the packaging, as well as the fragrance. So, I also agree with you in that regard.
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Hi @Paprik
I wondered this about using Disodium EDTA in a conditioner, but I see that it is used by many of the big brand conditioners, such as Pantene, TRESemmé, VO5, L’Oréal, Suave, and others. Is it just being used at a smaller rate or are they doing something particular to incorporate it without inhibiting stability?
Thank you!
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Regarding hypoallergenic claims:
In an effort to shine light on new, emerging, and/or repurposed allergens, the American Contact Dermatitis Society annually announces an allergen of the year. The Contact Allergen of the Year for 2017 is alkyl glucoside. Alkyl glucosides include several compounds, including decyl, lauryl, cetearyl, and coco glucosides.
Source: 2017 Top Stories in Dermatology: Allergen of the Year—Alkyl Glucoside
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It’s possible that the HEC did not have enough time to fully hydrate, and if the the pH or temperature were too high when added, it may have caused lumping.
I don’t think you need to create a slurry to incorporate HEC in your formula. You can add it slowly to room temperature water under agitation before adding anything else. Wait for it to fully hydrate and then proceed.
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I think 2% active BTMS would be a good starting point for a rinse-off conditioner, which would require 2.5% BTMS-80 in weight. Keep in mind, I’m not a professional, but I do think this is a reasonable amount to start with, especially for dry, curly hair.
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ES1822+ is actually a cationic conditioning emulsifier just like BTMS, except it is palm-free. I know that Simply Ingredients ships internationally through their shop on Etsy, and you can also email them for help finding an ingredient they carry at a retailer that is local to you.
You could also experiment with the BTMS-80. I don’t think the isopropyl alcohol will have a negative effect on your hair. If you use it at 2.5%, you will have 2% active BTMS and only 0.5% isopropyl alcohol (which is likely evaporated during the heating process anyway).
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I had a feeling that would be the case. Thanks again!
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@HeathFor
I actually started a discussion regarding this topic back in 2022, which you may be interested in reading: Is Niacinamide Effective in Rinse-Off Applications?
But to sum it up, it is unlikely to be effective in rinse-off products.
chemistscorner.com
Is Niacinamide Effective in Rinse-Off Applications? - Chemists Corner
I have not been able to find any evidence that supports this, but I have noticed many big brands like to use this ingredient in…
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Hi @Graillotion
Is GLDA considered a truly effective alternative to EDTA or is EDTA superior in performance? I’ve noticed EDTA is much more commonly used in commercial products, but I’m wondering if that’s more about cost rather than performance.
Thank you!
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You are correct! I should’ve clarified, that is just my personal opinion/preference, or what sells a product to me.
I am not interested in clean beauty claims or paraben and sulfate free statements. I am much more concerned with the performance and feel of a product. But, I am aware that the majority of consumers are likely more swayed by fluffy claims.
I will admit, however, that I am a fool for aesthetically pleasing packaging, which would sell a product to me faster than any clean beauty claims would. ????