[Cafe33]

So to give a an update on this discussion, I ended up being added to a whatsapp group for the girlfriends branding and marketing team without my approval. Then they all pushed for a Zoom meeting which I did not attend. 

I imagined MarkBroussard and others on this thread coaching me and I addressed the group and said that a new contract has to be negotiated and this is not part of the services I quoted. I left the group and msged her privately saying that I do not work for free and that payment has to be made for me to continue. She replied with ..we are a team, helping each other… So I repeated the word payment I dont know how many times. I accepted the idea of walking away and yesterday the payment was made.  Part of me wishes it never happened since I have a feeling it will be quite a pain in the you know what. It might be okay because I established that I am willing to walk away and wont be pushed around.

[Cafe33]

They are not patentable. Out of 18 product types, one could arguably be investigated. A lawyer got into the ear of the clients wife and this is how the seed was planted. They did not pay for the formula, my quote was for private label service.

Mexico does not have a bar system. Lawyers can join a private bar however it is not mandatory. Professional licenses are issued by the Dirección General de Profesiones once a 4 year course is completed after high school. Once the 4 year program is complete, no matter how good or bad, they are granted a license. 

To complicate things further, there is no distinction between the types of law degrees and specializations. A lawyer is a lawyer. That means that a lawyer with zero patent experience can easily pretend that he is competent in whatever is being talked about. Abuse and misrepresentation is rampant. 

[Cafe33]

Everyone’s support and input is deeply appreciated.

The challenge has been to neutralize the entourage of vultures around him. If I thought something was a bad idea, I told him. I guided him the best way I can. At one dinner meeting, I took him aside and explained the absurdity of unenforceable patents on 18 different product types. Some people in the entourage did not like that one bit but he is the client and the bottom line. I think that trust has been built. 

[Cafe33]

Well it has been a surreal experience so far. I suspect that the lawyer suggesting patents is misleading his client. I was told that the client has many hang-arounds who are trying to extract $ from him. This will be my first large order after nearly 3 years of working in this field and living on my savings. I have had to adapt to some of the eccentric behavior. From his wife spreading fresh avocado on her hands and face during dinner to a 6 hour price negotiation, screaming that he wants ginger in his shampoo while wearing a taekwondo gi the entire time. 

[Cafe33]

Thanks Mark. The main client is a very wealthy man in Mexico city and is only used to hearing Si Senor. I already had to go up against his lawyers saying that they want all of the formulas patented. I managed to convince him that it is a waste of money and time. Some members of his team are not happy about that since I think they wanted to cash in. An interesting set of dynamics I have to say, I feel like I am in a movie. 

[Cafe33]

I should mention that when developing these bars, I lived in front of the beach and the humidity was high. It could be why I have seen have how certain ingredients can react negatively. The failures were noticed immediately. In any case, these ingredients can not be used in my geographic location.  

I have tried colloidal oatmeal and avena sativa oil. It was part of a syndet facial bar which had over 20% stearic acid. At inputs of 1.5% to 0.1%, it clearly made the bar snap even in some cases after one use. It was part of a rice & oat facial exfoliant bar and I tried in vain to incorporate an active oat ingredient. I had to settle for a trace amount of oat ground material. 

[Cafe33]

Your wax content is very high. Stearic acid at 12% is very high. In fact I can imagine it would be quite draggy on hair and potentially drying. I use around 2.65% to give you an example. More than 3% is really not necessary and detrimental. Cetyl alcohol keep it at 5% or so. Increase the level of BTMS if needed, but I know that it is an expensive proposition.

Your surfactant level is low. Aim for around 70% or so. Double the SCI Input. 

You are not limited at all, you have everything needed for a good shampoo bar. 

Btw, glycerine does nothing but weaken the structure of the bar. I would remove any trace of it. 

A better input for coconut oil and castor is around 0.1% each. 

What perservative are you using. Avoid any and I mean ANY propylene glycol in your bars or they will not last all that long.

Is it powdered oat you are using? I can tell you that the avena sativa oil weakens the structure of the bar for reasons I don’t understand. From 1.5% to 0.1% was tried all with the same results, snapping after 1-2 uses. Not sure what kind of oat you are using. 

[Cafe33]

Shine, detangling, fortifying… the list goes on. If your shampoo is truly superior in the market you are in, make the appropriate investment in packaging and design to differentiate yourself. 

You can’t exactly educate the consumers on the benefits of silicone or PQ10… Look at the moroccanoil, everything is based on the benefits of Argan, yet the lineup contains mainly silicones. 

If your shampoo is superior in conditioning, it will be noticeable to consumers. It is something that is easy to assess. 

Low viscosity can irritate consumers as they feel it is a lower quality. I have seen this in my market.   

[Cafe33]

Svemirska_baklava said:

@Cafe33 As you can’t use salt for thickening that kind of formulation, what did you use to thicken it? Acrylates copolymer, gums? 

I use PEG-150 Stearate for the ALS Blend, For the sulfate free formulations, I use acrylic copolymers for the “facial cleansers” with low surfactant input and Carbopol Aqua SF-1 (Found this to be quite expensive since the input needs to be 8-10%) 

I settled on Methyl Glucose Dioleate PEG-120 as my favorite option. Also, Polyquat 7 and especially Polyquat 10 also thickens it nicely. 

[Cafe33]

I have been trying a new (for me) preservation system for products that contain high levels of water (85-90% or so).

Geogard Ultra + Sodium Citrate + Phenoxyethanol + EDTA, pH 4.8-5.2  

I will be getting some stability testing done, just wondering if some of you feel I am going down a bad path?

[Cafe33]

marinaartm said:

Cafe33 said:

Your shampoo is all glucosides? Have you ever tested this surfactant mix you are suggesting? It could be quite irritating. Panthenol just gets rinsed off anyway, it won’t stick to hair in a shampoo. 

I wanted to make the formula to be considered natural, hence why i used those surfactants. The formula was a bit too thin so i’m considering trying again and adding 0,25% xanthan gum to phase B. So if you think i should change the formula a bit for the surfactants also, please let me know.

Thank you!

I am not much of a fan of decyl glucoside in large inputs. I think you are working a little backwards. My suggestion is to use an anionic surfactant, add an amphoteric like CAPB and lower the input of non-ionic surfactants. The best “affordable” sulfate free formula I developed utilizes sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, decyl glucoside, CAPB, Lamesoft PO65 and a thickener. I use polymers as thickeners but if you are looking to use Xanthan gum, try it but it will not have as nice a feel.

The main surfactant is the anionic. It is a good product but no where near the “regular” shampoo I make using a sulfate (ALS) blend. I am a beginner headed to an intermediate stage when it comes to shampoos, so take my advice with that fact in consideration.     

[Cafe33]

Ventos sells fragrance chemicals and they will have almost anything. Sigma aldrich also sells fragrance chemicals, they have a “food production” catalog and you can buy smaller amounts in the 500-1000gram range and the prices are not ridiculous. 

There are smaller online shops who sell hobby amounts, there is even an internet forum a lot of them advertise on.  

[Cafe33]

Neroli + Sandalwood + Geranium + Menthol. In the right proportions, nobody can resist this. 

Vanilla + Musk + hints of nuts.

Ethylene Brassylate(Musky) + Grapefruit essential oil and a couple of top notes

Coconut cream + Lime essential oil

Ethylene Brassylate + Lemongrass essential oil - made this for a surface cleaner, unbelievable 

[Cafe33]

Your shampoo is all glucosides? Have you ever tested this surfactant mix you are suggesting? It could be quite irritating. Panthenol just gets rinsed off anyway, it won’t stick to hair in a shampoo. 

[Cafe33]

I always pictured Matt having brown hair. Nice videos!

[Cafe33]

Have you ever worked with Olivem 1000? I am a beginner formulator and found it quite greasy. There are ways around it as suggested by some board members here but I haven’t tried it. DIY formulators do not really care, it is more about trending ingredients, so I understand the interest.
 
If you need a sample, there is a repacker here in Mexico that sells it. I would be happy to send you the bag I have if it can help you.  

[Cafe33]

I am using a surfactant blend consisting of ALS/Sodium Lauryl  Glucose Carboxylate/ Lauryl Glucoside / Cocamide DEA. It also contains PEG 150 Distearate but none of the percentages are listed.

I have successfully made a clear bodywash/Shampoo

Surfactant Mix	29
CAPB	4
PEG 7 Cocoate	3
decyl glucoside	2

+ 0.25 % Polyquat 10. Excellent viscosity and the clarity is perfect

I have tried to create a pearlized version using Euperlan PK 3000 

Surfactant Mix	25
CAPB	3.5
decyl glucoside	2
Lamesoft PO65	1.5
Euperlan	2

When Polyquat 10 was added it created a thick sugar looking texture.

At the usage rate of 0.25%, upon addition; it would stiffen and break if attempting to move it around with a spoon. A few days later, it seemed to settle down. I have since been able to create a pearlized version with 0.11 % PQ-10. Using Polyquat-7 (1.0-1.5%) did not create that effect.

I would describe it as large glob (0.20-0.25% PQ-10). I am wondering why this would happen?

[Cafe33]

Bill_Toge said:

try adding more cetyl alcohol to it; that’ll give it more viscosity at rest and make it feel ‘thicker’

After trying several other runs, one with 0.05% Xanthan, in the end it was Bill_Toge’s suggestion that gave the best result. 

[Cafe33]

I made a bodywash using 8% SCI, 12% SLSa, 12% CAPB with peppermint oil. I used the pulverized powdered form of SCI and did not have a problem whatsoever. It stayed in solution for close to a year until I used it all. 

It has a nice feel and foam is nice but in the end, it doesn’t clean so well and costs a fortune to make. If you insist on sticking to sulfate free, I found a Lauryl Sarcosinate/Decyl Glucoside/CAPB to work just as well yet costs much less.

In the end I went with a ALS type of blend similar to PLANTAREN APB with CAPB, Decyl Glucoside, Lamesoft PO 65 and the results have been outstanding. Also costs 1/5 of my original formulation.

[Cafe33]

Is there a reason some people seem to be opposed to BHT as an antioxidant? I never see it recommended.

[Cafe33]

I am also interested in what @chemicalmatt has to say about dimethicone input as he is the professional here. 

As for me, I have used anywhere from 2-5%. I also make a conditioning mask which is popular and contains no silicones using 1.5% Polyquat 7 and panthenol. 

I guess my question(s) to you now is, do you prefer BTMS-25 over BTMS-50? And do you use any butters or specific oils in the one you make that you like? 

I use BTMS-25 for economic reasons. I do have some experience with the 50 version, but I did not find that it justified the expense. For me it is exactly double the price. I also do not buy that it is necessarily “double” the conditioning power as the 25 version. I find BTMS-25 to be a suitable version. If your budget allows it, you can use the 50 version. 

As far as oils, I feel they are more like label appeal ingredients, but that is my personal opinion. I do think there is a benefit in smaller inputs like 5-10%, it does soften the hair. I might use a greasier oil like avocado at 1-2% but overall I have a strong preference for esters.  

[Cafe33]

So I can get from a repacker here (Mexico) what they call “silicone elastomer 9040” so I thought it was the same one Matt was pointing out. Big surprise it is poorly tagged as the INCI shows that it is actually DOWSIL™ EL-7040. Is that similar to the Dow Corning 9040? 

[Cafe33]

abierose, I have a very coarse beard combined with very sensitive skin. I let it grow without cutting it and I have been testing conditioners this last few weeks as well as using a variety of products over the last year or so.

Simple emulsified oils/butter/balms are utterly useless for me and have a very unpleasant feel. 

BTMS-25/Dimethicone 350cst has been the most successful for me. I have also had some success with Polyquat-7.  I also found Natrasil to be a fairly good “natural” alternative to silicones if that is of interest to you.  I found panthenol to be a good addition in leave on conditioner. I have experimented with DANOX HC-30/Dimethicone and found it to be underperforming as compared to BTMS. 

For a fairly thick product (Butter), I use around 6-8% BTMS-25 w/ 2-3% cetyl alcohol. You don’t need 30-50% Shea and other plant butters as some will have you believe. From a user standpoint (me!), those types of products are greasy and underperforming.

[Cafe33]

Are Aloe Vera claims overstated and is it more of a label appeal ingredient?

[Cafe33]

I was actually about to formulate my first cream with carbomer when I read your post.

I proceed the following way 

Aqua					Q.S.
Carbopol 940					0,250
GLYCERINE					3,000
POLAWAX NF					3,000
CETYL ALCOHOL					1,000
GLYCERYL STEARATE					1,000
IPM					2,000
PARAFFINUM LIQUIDUM					5,000
GERMALL PLUS					0,400

Neutralized with TEA 0.25%

I got the same texture and rheology you described. 

On my second attempt, I added 0.10% Xanthan gum and everything else was the same (other than lowering IPM to 1.5%). It seems to have fixed the problem, it gave it just enough “stringiness”. I don’t know if this helps but I thought I would share.