Bobzchemist
Forum Replies Created
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“high mp waxes cant used in large amount cause …its not good for skin.”
Where are you getting this information? -
Cyclomethicone, volatile dimethicone.
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Also, the vast majority of folks exclude, to some extent or another, any ingredient produced by, or derived from, animals. I have actually heard otherwise intelligent people argue that animal-derived products cannot possibly be “natural”.
So, gelatin made from animal hooves is out - not a big surprise, or a huge problem. But some people/organizations take this to extremes - nothing made from milk, for example, is understandable, but extreme - animals are not harmed by giving milk. Lanolin is out also, under this way of thinking, but so is beeswax, and carmine, and anything else made by or from insects…there is no logic to it, as far as I can see. -
This is one of those situations where it helps to know a little CTFA/INCI history. For some reason, the moiety we now call “ethylhexyl” used to be called “octyl”, in the CTFA/INCI nomenclature.
So, what is now called “Ethylhexyl ethylhexanoate” used to be called “Octyl Octanoate”Search for that name, and you find:Also, plugging “Ethylhexyl ethylhexanoate” into the PCPC Buyers guide tells me that Symrise sells it. -
You need (at least one, maybe two or three) an emulsifying gellant. Can you use a chemically-modified natural gum? How natural do you have to be? (I’m assuming that you want this to be mostly water, for cost purposes)
Sclerotium gum comes to mind, for example.That stuff from Lucas Meyer uses it in a mixture: http://lucasmeyercosmetics.com/en/products/product.php?id=68&from=catAlso, Sucragel.But much depends on your definition of “natural” -
I’ve often thought that there would be value in a small evaluation kit with all the Carbopol/carbomer variants in it. They do feel different, although some differences are subtle.
It’s time-consuming to do this thoroughly, though, and you also have to ask your self “do I compare similar viscosities, or similar concentrations?” -
I don’t think less of you at all. Many well-respected cosmetic chemists have learned on the job just the way you’re doing.
I’ve been doing product development chemistry for many years - and 80-90% of this is NOT taught in schools. Not having a chemistry degree doesn’t make you any less of a chemist.I’m not just a chemist here, either - I wear many hats:chemical engineer, packaging engineer, microbiologist, regulatory specialist, equipment repair tech., etc.We’re in Kennesaw - http://www.beaumontproducts.com -
Nice to hear from another chemist in Georgia, Mathew. A few more of us and we could start our own SCC chapter, instead of just having to hear about the fun they get up to in Memphis (and occasionally Chattanooga). Where in Georgia do you work?
Bob -
Look up freeze/thaw stability testing procedures. If you pass the stability testing, nothing else needs to be done to your product. If you do not, the strategies for improving stability are numerous, and which you pick depends on the product and the needs of the market that it’s being sold to. (For example - some waxes can add freeze/thaw stability - but adding more than a very little wax to an emulsion makes it feel horribly draggy on skin. If you are selling products for construction workers, they may not care. But others..?)
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Stephanie,
My first question to you is whether or not you will be selling private label products, or contracting out the manufacture of your own formulas? Or something in-between?If you want to start relatively low-key, my first recommendation would be to talk to Mark Fuller, @microformulations, for his advice.Alternatively, you could jump in with both feet, and start talking to contract manufacturers by your self.Since the company I work for, Beaumont Products (in Kennesaw, GA) operates as a contract and private label manufacturer, as well as a manufacturer for our own products, I don’t feel comfortable recommending competitors.I would be happy to talk to you more about this privately, however. Feel free to send me a message here or on LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-zonis/1/841/568 -
There is no such thing as a water soluble pigment. By definition, any soluble colorant is called a dye. Pigments are always insoluble particles - without a suspending agent, the particles will settle out.
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Well…the supplier isn’t selling to the general public, so there’s not a lot of illegality going on - certainly nothing that would involve the justice system here. A lawsuit by a customer would probably win - but since the pictures are helping the customers sell product, I doubt that would happen.
Neither the product manufacturer nor the ingredient supplier have really done anything illegal here - the only thing they’d have to worry about is making sure that they are not making drug claims that would get the FDA involved.Also, look up the concept of “puffery” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery, which is frequently used as a defense in cases like this. -
Betty,
Seriously, focus on ONE product.Maybe a treatment oil would be best - it always simplifies things when you make something without water.As @MakingSkincare says, how you proceed comes down to how much time you have, and how much money you have. Doing this fast requires paying a bunch of money to consultants and private label manufacturers. Doing this cheaply requires taking your time, learning about the materials available yourself, researching the similar products that are already being sold, and then figuring out how you can make something different that customers will want to buy.It is much less risky, in my opinion, when starting a new company, to have one very good product to sell, rather than a range of me-too, not exceptional products. It is easier to sell, it is easier to be passionate about, and once sales have begun to develop, you have a foundation of customers to begin to sell other products to. -
Looking at the ingredient dec., I see 2 or 3 things that make me suspicious, and lead me to believe that there’s an error:1) Dimethicone, PEG-8*The presence of these next to each other makes me think that they should be one material. Also, Dimethicone by itself is very hard to get into an anhydrous product, and there aren’t enough coupling ingredients to get the siloxanes in and stable. I bet that the actual ingredient used is one of these: Dimethicone PEG-8 Adipate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Avocadoate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Beeswax; Dimethicone PEG-8 Benzoate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Borageate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Isostearate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Laurate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Meadowfoamate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Olivate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Phosphate; Dimethicone PEG-8 Succinate2) They are already using PEG-8 Dimethicone, so they might be familiar with the material - or they are using this: http://www.ulprospector.com/en/na/PersonalCare/Detail/6483/218273/Vitacon-ACE 3) There is not a whole lot holding this formula together. I see Ozokerite as the only wax, possibly with Cetyl Alcohol and Cocoa Butter as secondary agents, and it makes me wonder how they are keeping this formula stable.I would also like to point out that, while I don’t know anything about Product Quest personally, and I have absolutely no idea whether or not they have dealt with your client honestly, it has been somewhat common practice among some of the contract manufacturers that I have dealt with to deliberately make a mistake or two when selling a formula to a former client. I don’t know if that’s the case here or not - but just be aware that it does happen.
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You have stumbled upon one of the little secrets of the cosmetic industry. There is nothing to keep a cosmetic manufacturer from saying “Contains ACTIGYM!” on the label of their product (as long as there actually is some in there)
The manufacturer can also say “ACTIGYM has been shown to cause miraculous benefits!” and refer back to the supplier literature. The supplier literature doesn’t have to make much scientific sense - as long as the cosmetic manufacturer can point to it and say “I just said what they said” , they can legally be in the clear. -
Looking at the various PEG-8 derivatives that could potentially work in a lip balm, PEG-8 Beeswax kind of jumps out at me.
I would suggest contacting your customer and telling them that you do not find PEG-8 to be a compatible ingredient in the formulation, and ask if perhaps they’ve made a typo? -
Are you sure they meant PEG-8 by itself and not one of it’s derivatives? (PEG-8 Propylene Glycol Cocoate, PEG 8 Laurate, PEG-8 Dimethicone, PEG-8 Distearate, etc.)?
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This makes sense once you start worrying about the FDA and drug status versus cosmetic status of finished products.Bulk Actives seems to be saying:“We think that SLMW Hyaluronic does indeed penetrate the stratum corneum and penetrate into the dermis, where we believe it does “affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals” (FD&C Act, sec. 201(g)(1)). That would make any product using it a drug, by the FDA’s definition, so we stopped selling it.”Then, they go on to say:“When we stopped selling this ingredient, we lost too much money. And since other people stopped selling this, the opportunity to make even more money is too large for us to ignore. So, since we still think that this could be a drug ingredient, our lawyers tell us that if we sell it, but tell everyone not to buy it, we will be free from any liability if the FDA goes after one of our customers for selling an unapproved new drug.”It’s not a lack of intelligence, in my opinion - it’s an excess of greed.
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@Perry has a course for this…
My suggestion is to come up with 1 single product idea that solves a problem your customers have that no other product can solve. Once you have decided on that product idea, come back and talk to us. -
If you’ve already tried gently heating and stirring, try it again at 70 - 80C. If that doesn’t work, you will have to scrap the material.
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Usually, the pH of shampoo and the pH of soap are so incompatible that a mixture of the two is not stable, and the soap goes back to its component parts.
My guess is that the companies know this, and find that it is just more palatable for the consumer to list sodium tallowate on the ingredient label, rather than listing tallow (beef fat) and sodium hydroxide. -
@Allan, I agree with @MarkBroussard.
Any product formulating consultant who knows what he or she is doing has at least a rough idea of what any given product will cost. If your initial target price is unreasonably low, an experienced consultant will know that you will have to be educated about formula, packaging and manufacturing costs, and then dragged, kicking and screaming all the way, to a price that is probably 2 - 3 times your target price. Most consultants have had to do this for a number of customers, and experience has shown them that such a customer will probably never be satisfied with anything the consultant does.So, knowing this, some consultants who have enough business will turn away clients who have unrealistic expectations for price and/or performance. The process of having to educate such a client takes up so much extra (unpaid) time that it’s not worth it unless a consultant has no other choice. The consultant you talked to referred you to people that he thought would have no choice but to take you on as a client.But…to keep this from happening, you can educate yourself. Look at products and back-calculate to get ideas about price. Talk to contract manufacturers to get an idea of how volume discounts work. Talk to packaging suppliers. Come here and ask us questions. Pretty soon, you will have a better idea of the economics. -
John Woodruff is selling his collection:
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US or EU?