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Carbomer
Hi,
Has anybody tested the different Carbopol types with the same INCI name “carbomer” against each other?Do they have different sensory properties?The supplier talks about pH, electrolytic tolerance, solubility etc but I would like to know if/how they differ in “feel”. -
16 Replies
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They have different sensorials as well as different wetting. For instance I do not like Ultrez in a cream product because it is more jelly-like. 940 works better for that. But for a gel Ultrez works great.
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I’ve often thought that there would be value in a small evaluation kit with all the Carbopol/carbomer variants in it. They do feel different, although some differences are subtle.
It’s time-consuming to do this thoroughly, though, and you also have to ask your self “do I compare similar viscosities, or similar concentrations?” -
Bob’s idea is pretty good. I suggest, David, that you approach your Lubrizol distributor and ask them for samples of, say, Carbopol 940, Ultrez-20, and Aqua SF-1 (this last is really for shampoos). I have always found Lubrizol distributors happy to arrange that.
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@belassi I made a hand cream with 940 I dont know but I felt irritant and I didnt like it.
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@nasrins: you did neutralise it properly? One of our popular products is a hand cream made with 940. We’ve been selling it for quite a while.
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yes … I dont know :-B
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Did you hydrate it in pure H2O first? If not, you may be using too much and it’s not getting properly hydrated.
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@avick I use 0.2% no I dont hydrate it. I add little by little in 15 minutes with high speed(800rpm)
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It should be added all at once 20 minutes or more prior to the rest of the ingredients, allowed to completely wet, then dispersed with gentle agitation (typically 200 rpm). It may be helpful to partially neutralise it prior to adding the other ingredients. I recommend sifting it into the water to avoid lumps that can result in “fish eyes”.
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@belassi I should completly solve it in water ok(without fish eyes)? and then neutrulize ok? , so the way of solving has nothing to do with irritating.
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Correct. If it doesn’t disperse properly and fish-eyes are left, those will be pure (acidic) carbomer and can irritate.
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Im sure I disperse properly but I feel irritating. maybe because of other ingredients in my hand cream. carbomer compatibility is somewhat complicated!!!!!
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There are many types of Carbomers and they change basically in:
1. Their resistance to salt which is often correlated to the suspending power (for ex, if you want to suspend some beads inside the shampoo you should use Acqua SF-1). Also if the polymer is not resistant to salts at all even if you don’t add salt in the final formulation, when you put a drop in your hand it will slip very fast because the electrolytes of the skin will cause this sudden drop of viscosity. Otherwise it will stay longer.2.The range of pH where they work the best. Some pH gives you a great transmittance but lower viscosity and others a good suspending but not so good clarity, so depending on the final pH of the formula you can choose the best carbomer to satisfy those characteristics). Raw materials suppliers always say the range of pH where they work ok, and not all of carbomers have the same.3. The rheology changes a lot if you compare with some other products that are still acrylic acid polymers but hydrophobically modified (-some of them made to satisfy some food claims as budding, butter, jelly-) they are often called carbomers due to its similarities but they develop higher viscosities and rheological behaviors due to their associative power of their extra hydrophobic chains. -
i correct - they are not often called carbomers, but we usually put them in the list of carbomers, like acqua-SF1 for example..
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@eli aqua SF-1 is carbopol, but the polymer for suspending beads is neither carbomer nor carbopol. its poly acrylic acid derivative such as acrylate/stearath20 methacrylate cross polymer
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@Belassi what about high shear inline homogenizer with 2800rpm speed for carbomers?
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