[Bo77]

Grapefruit22- I understand your point. I’m for education. I stand for awareness, absolutely. Except…. so many people don’t educate themselves, they just repeat what quick google search throws at them. There has to be some line people should not cross. I agree with Perry, big companies are scrutinized more than small ones. I don’t necessary trust big companies marketing but safety? I do trust more than small companies. I’m all for small companies but when I check the safety of some small businesses, I question some decisions. I’m small business but I have to be honest, not all small companies are equal. For one big company screw up, many more small ones are up there. Except we don’t hear about that so much. 

Perry- I did make business decision to change the preservative system in my products, because of my customers. They did “demand” it. My company is slightly different, and customers do “study” INCI. I can explain them “safe synthetics” but can’t pass FR, or parabens. That’s too deep rooted already lol. I really try to give them “the better option”(for lack of better words). We don’t use certain ingredients, but I don’t do ads on that. I go for transparency, story, sustainability, ecofriendly, better options ingredients but not completely “clean beauty”.

Perry:
“Ultimately, consumers do not primarily care about the ingredients in their products. They care about results, how the product makes them feel, and how well they identify with the brand.” this is a big company description, not small company description. We cannot compare with big companies, of course. We have to have our own approach. And for many of us ingredients playing a big role. With other things you mentioned, of course. 

But anyway, thank you all for our small conversation and thanks for letting me vent lol
I decided to go back to my hermit nonsocial media world. Don’t want to get heart attack. Too young for that (hopefully) lol.

[Bo77]

Perry, point 2 is what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to educate consumers, but it’s so freaking hard. This bs is everywhere. Now, take it from our perspective - small business one. If I don’t change my preservative, I will not have customers. Since the beginning I present my company as ” naturally derived and safe synthetics combined”. I did not go with green, natural etc. I want to stay honest, transparent as much as possible and still give consumers a great product. I stopped with Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate bc people go crazy against FR, you can try to educate people but as a small company you will lose. I’m still trying. Started something like glossary on my website, but it takes time which I don’t have much of. 
Marketing- I’m not against all marketing, most companies are not honest with their studies, of course. I get that. I’m trying a different approach. I’m trying my best to be honest, also using peptides and actives which don’t have any real, independent studies behind, but in which I believe bc when my final product is done, I’m extremely happy with it and believe in it. And people who test my products are happy with it. I would never sell something what I would not back up 100%. What started as a hobby for me many years ago ended up as my business.     
But back to the fear mongering- my social media person warns me not to get into bs “fights”  but you would assume that aesthetician should know better and not to bash company and not to roll her (beauty filter altered) eyes at people who’s using this product.  I just hate that. Slap in the face to people who’s using it. 

[Bo77]

Abdullah said:

Hopefully here we don’t have to write the list of all ingredients on label so we are protected from such people.

Abdullah, I believe in transparency and education. Education (may it be self or institution) is important and great. Fear mongering is not. What internet spitting at us these days is extremely not helpful, in a lot of cases extremely dangerous. People who think they know, and they don’t know crap. And others listen to them. I don’t necessary like regulations ( free spirit ) but I understand why they are placed in specific fields. We have ours here in US. And I go by these regulations. Big companies go by these regulations. What people believe that big companies will give them, poison? I can’t be on social media, time for me to go back to my hermit lifestyle

[Bo77]

You created these flowers? You are talented. Praise where it’s due.    Very nice. 

[Bo77]

Graillotion- I use GO almost in everything, too. And can say in the same manner also. I like to combine more ingredients in lower amounts and GO is one of them. Helping to stabilize, co em, but “re-fat” it too. Not necessary to emulsify, but it doesn’t hurt if it helps with it. I think we work similarly but on different feels, you go for dry faster feel, matte. I go more for rich, moist, not greasy and dewy lol. What I’m trying to say, I’m this small “perfectionist” where I can feel any tiny difference and it’s driving me crazy, seriously lol. My sis is laughing at me already. Yeah, and this .2% I know very well what you talking about  .

Are you officially bragging with your garden?  It’s just beautiful, seriously. I love nature. I’m more mountain type of preference, growing up not that far from where Pharma is, and far from your island. But your pictures are gorgeous, very peace inducing.  <3

[Bo77]

Paprik said:

Lowering the overall HLB value by adding low HLB emulsifier. As @Abdullah mentioned. 2-3% should help, you also build some viscosity to the product. 
Never tried it with liquid emulsifier. Could work too? 

Yep, works also. For some reason I can’t stand GSC, (everyone loves it here, I know and I apologize lol) even small amount ruins my formula sensory profile, no matter what else I put in it. But I like Glyceryl Oleate as co em. Low HLB, never had issues with soaping. Nothing what can’t be fixed. Also, Glyceryl oleate citrate, caprylic/capric triglyceride is great in small amount as co em. But it’s high HLB, anionic. It gives slightly rich, but not heavy feel. I can’t take any stearate I don’t know why, but even small amount and I feel “the drag”. Wondering why. Even it’s sound like nonsense, I know. I guess,I just prefer more “airy” products lol.

[Bo77]

Graillotion said:

For those wondering what a walk in the garden looks like in January, this picture was taken this morning.

such a beautiful place. Looks very serene  <3 Kitty also  

[Bo77]

I can tell you that I tried Sepiwhite (Undecylenoyl phenylalanine) - your product has to be under pH5 or over pH7, otherwise it’s very finicky, will break formula. Also, sepiwhite doesn’t like to play nice with other lighteners. Can’t tell you about zinc, I don’t work with zinc, but color change can definitely happen with 4% niacinamide. Tocopherol higher, due to your oils, chelating agent, more (mix) preservative, lower your pH. Store in dak container. I can’t tell you anything about milk, as I don’t work with it. These curds can be from your milk but sepiwhite can also do similar thing to this. I can’t tell you anything more about your formula bc I never used your ingredients from oil phase. 

[Bo77]

“Do you consider beta glucan…an equal level of bug food as colloidal oatmeal?  I would assume less….but do not know the entire chemistry.”

What I tried ( long time ago) was VenaSilk,( I think). Naturally derived from oat flour. 10% BG. INCI: hydrolyzed oat flour. ( hated it) but that’s not the point. ) 

[Bo77]

I love to add Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate to my preservative combo. It goes under Suttocide A from Ashland. But it’s formaldehyde releaser, I don’t know if you looking for something more “natural”. But it’s “naturally derived”. I mix it with other preservatives like Silver Citrate and Citric Acid( Silverion) and bacillus ferment like AMTicide VAF(great for mold and yeast) this combo works very well for my products. Not all but most. Worked for cream with beta glucan in it.

EDIT: now I see you are looking for something no f releaser. Sorry.

[Bo77]

Around 5 is  fine. No problem. My face creams always come around 4.8 to 5.5. Never had any issues with regular niacinamide. I don’t remember who but some known company formulate some creams with B3 and their pH  is high 4 low 5. They wrote about it. And Paula’s choice is going even lower, I think. But that would be pushing it, probably. Try it and you’ll see, right? 

[Bo77]

For CBD I use only my local guys where I know the quality, I don’t buy CBD wholesale, that’s why it’s expensive. 

[Bo77]

I make CBD cream for my husband frequently. Quite expensive as I use high quality high percentage. Usually for 100g cream I use 1g of CBD powder (1000 mg) the powder form is much better than oil. 1g of good quality CBD costs me around $45, but it’s worth it. Little goes a long way. I tried to mix it with magnesium too,( powder) it was an excellent combo for pain, but it re crystalized. I think magnesium oil form would be better. Didn’t really bothered us, it’s just for him. You can try it. I didn’t bother to trouble shoot it  

[Bo77]

I totally forgot about Siligel- Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan. You can try it, natural gelling I remember trying it long time ago. Natural formulators love it. 

[Bo77]

suswang8, if you will decide to try some polymers, which can’t really reach the natural skincare status, try to search for - Sodium acrylate/sodium acryloyldimethyl taurate copolymer, C15-19 alkane, polyglyceryl-6 laurate, polyglycerin-6. GelMaker NAT, I believe Makingcosmetics have it. They listed under ” Natural Emulsifying & Gelling Polymer Thickener”. It’s superior to xgum. Not the best gel maker on the market, but claiming natural. This can maybe help you a little.
 I don’t know how “deeply  natural” you want to be with your products.  “Natural” will not give you many choices, it’s  limited. There are so many levels of “natural”. I think that most natural formulators don’t have that many choices, that’s why they recommend xgum and gums in general. To formulate natural is limited. I know, I did it, too. I still do on some level, choosing safer ingredients over others ( only my opinion) etc. Mixing oils and steeping herbs , I grow up with herbs
Anyway, I turned to safe cosmetic material and started to mix “natural” with “safe chemicals” because they are better in feel, touch, stability etc. Of course that ,let’s say, cream 75/25 with Olivem 1000 and some CA and botanical extract is lovely, but some let’s say C14-22 Alcohols & C12-20 Alkyl Glucoside ( Montanov L), with some Aristoflex and carbomer is better. ( just examples) and I would say, maybe saleable better.

Anyway, I apologize for writing long novel here lol Just wanted to say that natural formulators raving about xgum simply because they are somehow limited with a lot of ingredients. 
Good luck with your product.
Bo

[Bo77]

suswang8, I think I would try  Hydroxyethylcellulose HEC instead of xgum. I heard that it’s superior to xgum.? I can’t attest to it, personally. But I know some people using it and like it much better. And it will go with the natural term. 

[Bo77]

Graillotion said:

Don’t like any X-Gum….formulate around it.    

I agree with it, I never formulate with x gum. Don’t like it.

[Bo77]

I never worked with silica and EO, but I would say that any lemon/citrus family, peppermint and mint family, following with ” Italian spice mix” lol - rosemary, sage etc. That would be my personal guess.? Some EO you mentioning here are pretty strong and can be harsh on the skin. 

[Bo77]

I used Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate , Silver Citrate and Citric Acid, and add another Bacillus Ferment & Saccharomyces Ferment Filtrate  for some extra fungus protection . Very well preserve system (my opinion) Except now everybody and their grandma bashing formaldehyde releasers and SH is one.   :# 

[Bo77]

I’m actually looking for some “affordable” reliable homogenizer. I don’t need anything fancy or powerful like crazy, just for my testers formulations I’m doing. I’m curious if homogenizer will kill carbomers in formulations. 

[Bo77]

Pharma said:

I decided against stick blenders when I stumbled upon that crap cheap Ultra-Turrax-like Chinese knock-off thingamajig. I ordered it a few days ago.

I wonder whether or not it will be any good or last long… likely not useful for more than 1 litre but that’s fine with me and probably not doing well with high viscosity emulsions (not so fine with me).

I’ll keep you in the loop.

Pharma, sorry to disappoint you but I can report that I got it a month ago and thinking about throwing it out. I don’t know if I’m just extremely unlucky with mine  but it’s garbage. Mine doesn’t work as stirrer, too high for this, it will work as homogenizer. It doesn’t work on lowest setting. I tried max 150ml on it. The highest viscosity emulsion I tried was regular basic emulsion of 5g emulsifier( Olivem1000), 3g butter, 2g CA and 15g oil, up to 100 water. I think you can go safely:-)) to 200-300ml with this kind of emulsion. I was curious. I think that if it would not be broken cheap crap, it can actually work LOL. BTW I bough it on Ebay for $120. I’m unlucky in my case, but I read some reviews where people actually like it. Hopefully, you’ll have better luck.  

[Bo77]

No, polysorbates are not accepted by “natural”. What Perry and ng said, everyone have “natural” somewhere else. But reputable “natural” skin care would not touch it. Dr. Pratt is right, organic will not allow it. These days there are many subs. I saw a lot of DIY people using it. 

[Bo77]

Plantasol CCG. Works like a charm

[Bo77]

If you looking for some “natural” preservatives, it’s tricky with clays and muds. But I would try Silverion 2400 ( silver citrate & citric acid) it’s highest dose .3 % and maybe some bacillus ferment & saccharomyces ferment filtrate. also in higher percentage , around .3- .5 ish? Of course I can’t tell you it will work, you have to test it, but Silverion 2400 is performing very nicely in preservation of creams. Question is if it can perform effectively with bug food. Good luck 

[Bo77]

If you want to go for correction and pigmentation you can use  Niacinamide and N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG) combo. Search it out, not bad combination. There are many humectants on the market which are much cheaper than HA. Nothing really special about HA. Just from my experience, can’t speak further, but HA actually works better for people with acne or combo skin, not really dry skin.