Bluebird
Forum Replies Created
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Okay, thank you both.
I guess, following Abdullah’s advice, using pH 5 (which seems to lead to 37% activity, at least purportedly), and also increasing the concentration to 0.3% potassium sorbate would likely work, as it should lead to 0.111% in the active form. To @Perry44 I want to go low pH as you said for preservative reason but it seems one of my active ingredients is unstable at a low pH.
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I am a bit surprised by the certainty that people have here in the OP and the replies.
In the reply from Carina Organics, they said their pine extract provided antimicrobial efficacy.
So let’s examine the pine extract parts from the recalled product vs the current products.
In their recalled product’s 2009 formula, they listed Pinus divaricata (pine) extract, Pinus banksiana (pine) extract, whereas in the subsequent formula you mentioned, they listed Pinus elliottii (pine) extract, pinus banksiana (pine) extract.
So Pinus elliottii replaced Pinus divaricata.
There are some studies showing anti-mold and anti-bacterial properties of some pine extracts.
Without exactly testing the pine extracts used by Carina Organics, or testing their products and subjecting them to the challenge test, I am a bit surprised that you and everyone else feel SURE that these formulations do not work to functionally preserve the products.
My conclusion from reading your post and doing a quick search on pine extract is that it seems hard to tell for sure yet whether their formulation is functionally preserved or not without more in-depth digging about pine extracts of various sorts, and even then maybe, without doing the challenge test on their specific products.
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Also, lock your door at night, because extvolat companies may come knocking at your door. 🙂
cosmeticsandtoiletries.com
[update] Pine Aqua's Extvolat Proven to Self-preserve
Gentle coaxing is what it takes to extract holistic plant properties, according PineAqua, Ltd. As the company explains, the resulting "monoproduct" serves as a water replacement for preservative-free cosmetics.
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As an appreciation to your comment, though, here’s a bedtime reading that may be interesting to you, too. This discussion now got me interested in pine extracts, I think I’ll really start to dig a bit into pines.
This is the discovery from the first find:
MIC to S. aureus of pine needle extract, 2.5mg/mL.
That number’s not great, but is not terrible (not obviously out of the range for use).
Just the first one to find; more to follow. Enjoy!
“The dialyzed samples were isolated using ultrafiltration (MW 30,000 and 10,000). According to the results shown in Supplementary Figure S1, all ultrafiltered fractions (>30, 10–30, and <10 kDa) inhibited E. coli and S. aureus. Among these fractions, the antimicrobial activity of the sample ≤10 kDa in size was the highest. In addition, this fraction was most effective in inhibiting S. aureus (2.5 mg/ml) compared to E. coli (5 mg/ml) and showed the same results as the dialyzed samples.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8172577/
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@PhilGeis Hi PhilGeis, of course, being superficial with microbial contamination or preservation is bad.
At the same time, natural extracts deserve to be assessed without prejudice, for or against it.
Blind belief in them leads to damage, but so it is the other way around. I am now under the impression that EVEN IF Carina Organics did find extraordinary pine extracts that do work well, their finding would have been dismissed by you in the same way without examination, because you already have ideas on pine extracts as a whole and there is no room for redemption. I prefer to remain more open and at least examine possibilities and data when available before making a more definite judgement on stuff. That’s just me, in general, we can take different approaches. Life can be more interesting when there are different approaches.
If Carina Organics said they extracted pine extracts from their backyard I missed it. But I was under the impression they did not. and if by getting pine extracts “from their backyard” you are simply being dismissive, well, I don’t know. They are Canadians, so they may have the best pine trees in the world in their backyards. No offense meant, if there is any Scandinavian, Russian, or East European friend here with proper pride in their own pines. ????
I did not expect me to be an unofficial spokesman for Carina when I wrote and I don’t intend to, but since you somehow trivialize my customer experience to n=1 bottle, let me at least clarify that I was, in the past, an avid consumer, probably used close to 10 bottles. So it is very minutely slightly more significant than n=1. Or one could say, ten times more, in which case both would be right. I wonder whether Carina’s pine extracts are at least 10 times better than your assessment in the same way, though, their extracts may still suck or be great, I simply don’t have data to tell.
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I think he may indeed have a good reason, and I am glad I asked and got to hear his reason. As to what you said, I don’t think P&G would have necessarily bought pine extracts and use them EVEN IF they were effective, because they would be more expensive.
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Yes, MIC tests better be quantitative, not qualitative, and in the right contexts. I would imagine batch to batch variability you mentioned is a variable that may indeed affect things like pine extracts, or at least make them more challenging to use consistently.
I am not being an apologist for BS, I was genuinely curious why people were so sure. Well, you gave one answer on the possible variability and MIC tests.
I actually did use Carina Organic’s shampoo and body washes some years ago and quite liked the products as a customer with a very sensitive skin. That does not mean, of course, that their products, if not suitably preserved, won’t have contamination issues. However, I am surprised that if their products are indeed very poorly (or not at all) preserved, why contamination during customer use is not visibly much, much more frequent. I mean, I’d really expect mold or cloudiness to be visible if their products are not preserved and I bring them in the shower. I’d have expected monthly reports of contamination and recalls, not once-in-a-few-years recalls. But maybe I was bathing in invisible bacteria, I wouldn’t know.
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Oh just regular deo components. I imagine for deo, surface action is quite important, but of course I’d be eager to use enhanced/deeper delivery. I didn’t know glycerin propandiol, DMI could aid, as well as surfactants/emulsifiers (I suppose emulsifier part is what Graillotion was hinting at, though I didn’t completely understand). Thanks, I’ll look more into these.
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Thank you, “fixed,” stiff armpit hair was something that didn’t come to my mind, haha.
I just want my active ingredients to be more around in general and not get lost/diluted out quickly by sweat. Ideally, something that would help them “hang on” to skin more. Functionally, similar to phenoxyethanol and triethyl citrate for perfume as you said (I didn’t know these do that-thanks for telling me about them)-equivalents for other active ingredients. I was wondering whether there was a general category or a type of “something” that helps active ingredients stay longer on skin.
I suppose water type DO is the worst with that regard, compared to the hard solids or cream types that seem inherently harder to dilute away.
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@gordof do you know something that’s good to use for a deodorant?
Would it prevent sweating and clog pores/sweat glands (in good or bad ways)?
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Thank you, I think this may be the category I was looking for-film formers.
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Cationic emulsifiers because the skin is negative? That’s very interesting-I’ll look into it. I want to clarify but I am not sure which part was unclear to you so I’ll just try describing in different words. I’m looking for things that help ingredients stay longer and not get easily lost from rubbing, sweating, etc. I guess this can be done via film formation as was pointed out by @gordof , or something that helps ingredients “stick” better to the skin significantly.
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I see. What do you think of the stability of such an ester in water? I cannot say for sure.
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I have a new thought about the part you wrote on C12-13 Alkyl Lactate and want to hear your thought as a chemist.
When applied neat, perhaps this ester reacts with water only on the pits->becomes carboxylic acid and ethanol via hydrolysis, and kills bacteria OR becomes ethanol and lactic acid via some bacterial enzyme and kills via lactic acid.
But when included to only a few % of your product, perhaps just not enough in amount for that reaction,
OR it already hydrolyzed within your product and when applied to the pits, unlike when applied neat, does not have a high local concentration of carboxylic acid and ethanol.
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pH of 4-5 (TBD), and the other anti-bacterial parts, also TBD.
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I plan to use potassium sorbate.
I was thinking ahead while waiting for Aspergillus to arrive for me to test. 🙂
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Having Gram + only vs Gram - only preservatives help if I want to do a challenge test with both kinds into the product, but plate out separately and do selection.
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Thanks, good to know phenylethyl alcohol.
And oh, I meant by “change the microbiome”: I do believe that many if not most deodorants do affect the microbiome, synthetic and “natural” deodorants alike.
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I tried dissolving in EtOh to make the ~40% stock solution and added to create the final concentration of 0.1%.
It led to immediate particle formation when put into the final liquid.
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Why do you say so?
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Are you being sarcastic?
It’s a preservative
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An update: got actual data from Inolex, stability of CHA at pH4: stable, with no detection of hydroxamine via mass spec.
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Okay.
EPC-K1 manages odor even when there are bacteria.
Other ingredients try to kill bacteria.
But bacteria make a comeback-for some people, easily.
It is a matter of always try to kill vs having an additional weapon as an additional layer.
Blatant killing without additional measure often does not work well in fighting microbes.
However, I’d like to hear what are such awesome deo recipes you mention.
Do you know ingredients that would lead to at least 48h odor protection?
Please share, I have a lot to learn.
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But why ethylhexylglycerin there?
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They would have different effects that do matter.
But EPC-K1 is also used for cosmetics already, so not just pharma.
I believe it’s just expensive now because it’s uncommon.