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@Graillotion: Where do you get your ROE high in carnosic? 

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@Perry  I thought using it for other benefits with color as a side effect was ok. Thank you for clarifying.

So what do yo do as a formulator if you want to create non-white products? 

Where do the Campo Research natural pigments fall?

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@MarkBroussard. Thank you for the suggestions! I ordered some samples form UL prospector to try the malachite and the cyanocobalamin. Looking forward to trying them. Unfortunately the B12 is $4800/kg!!! So these would not be raw materials I could work with beyond the UL samples. 

I did come across these raw materials: 

Micronized cranberry powder with fine particle size 97%<200 µ.

Also Pigment Blue NC63 (Sepiolite, Indigofera Tinctoria Extract) which is supposedly photo-stable. They are both dispersible, not soluble in either water or oil.   

Would these maybe work?  Powders in emulsions make me really nervous though. I’m concerned they would interfere with the matrix and with preservation. 

@Squinny: Thank you for your suggestions. The BT is both for soothing, but mostly the color. The cream is a lovely light blue, much more fun than plain white. 

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@MarkBroussard & @Pharma. Thank you both for your comments. 

@MarkBroussard: I put some close iterations of this emulsion (without Blue Tansy) in the incubator at 45 C last year and they yellowed, and developed a slight pungent scent. Same batches at RT had no scent change and yellowed far less, even at 12 months. 

@Pharma: Good question: the Organic Babassu was refined, but the Murumuru was virgin, unrefined. 

I should mention that the Blue Tansy at RT after 3 months in a completely opaque white bottle still turned slightly, into an unpleasant grey, though far less than the oven. 

So, it seems then that Blue Tansy is one of the culprits. 

I will try refined Murumuru, or just swap it for something else. I noticed the iterations with Myrica wax instead of Murumuru didn’t change color much at all. Or maybe use Mango butter instead if it’s less prone to oxidation?

So maybe the oven when it comes to this emulsion is not a super accurate indicator, but is it a Fail? Is the yellowing a sign of instability? Without a peroxide value I can’t really tell if it crossed over to the dark side…

How do I shore up my anti-oxidant system?  What type of vitamin E is best to use and at what percentage? Combine it with some ROE, as @Graillotion suggested in a different Post? 

If it’s not a matter of instability, I could mask the yellowing by adding 2% Sea Buckthorn…

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Is preBiulin FOS (Inulin and Fructose) microbe food too? I can’t tell since it’s purported to kill the bad bacteria in favor of the good guys, but it is a polysaccharide so isn’t that dessert for microbes?

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@MarkBroussard: Indeed, phenoxyethanol as a cosmetic ingredient is not natural, although it occurs naturally in green tea  and chickory. I’ve referred to it as natural in a few of my posts, but what I meant is that it is nature-identical, and marginally tolerated in natural formulations form what I’ve read.  

I get it that the lecithin is hard to preserve. But Heliosoft (Glyceryl Behenate (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Lecithin) is COSMOS and comes from 100% natural origin ingredients. I wonder what natural preservative could be used, since it seems to be geared towards the natural formulations. And Siligel (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Pullulan) is also natural.

After posting this I went back and re-read through my Heliosoft literature and although phenoxyethanol is not listed under its incompatibilities, it is nonetheless problematic  according to this statement “ingredients known to destabilize cell membranes, i.e ethoxylated ingredients ( and preservative boosters with surfactant properties)  could also impact the stability of lamellar networks”

@Graillotion: I get my Blue Tansy from Eden Botanicals and they carry really high quality EOs. I did make my own 10% dilution in hemp seed oil for the purpose of this emulsion.  What percentage each do you use of E, ROE and ascorbyl palmitate?

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@Graillotion: I will try that. Thank you for the suggestion. 

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@grapefruit22: I’ve got 2%. I know those Polyunsaturated oils are tricky. Pomegranate also has a high Iodine value (152 ish I think), but are these at 2% and RT a culprit? Maybe it is the cumulative effect of a few things: lecithin, these guys, something else…?

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@Graillotion: Sure, not use that system, but that’s one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from natural preservatives until now. I don’t want my preservative system to be limit my choice of ‘natural ingredients

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@Graillotion OY! It took me many iterations to get to this texture. I have no idea what to swap it for  for a similar texture 😮

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@grapefruit22.  YES! I think that’s entirely likely. 
But I don’t want to change my emulsifying system, so what does that mean for stability?

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Common name (Street name) helps the consumer, but I would never not also include the INCI in parentheses. Without the INCI it is misguiding. Take extracts for example, they could be in all kinds of solvents that would not be visible to the consumer. The manufacturer can hide less desirable ingredients, or preservatives…or whatnot behind the common name. 

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@PhilGeis: Thank you. The issue is indeed the preservation, but Germall Plus is a formaldehyde donor (Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate) whereas the preservative system that failed is natural.

I would in a heart beat use the Germall but the issue is consumer perception…If I wanted to go natural, what other options do I have? 

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It failed in a closed container. No change in smell. What looks like mold is miniscule.But it did turn a greyish color from a light blue (from Blue Tansy).
I’m doing a micro now, won’t know for a few days. 

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FAIL!                 

 My emulsion preservative system (1% PE9010 +0.35% Sodium Benzoate + 2% Pentylene Glycol + 3% Propanediol 1,3 + 0.2 Sodium Phytate + ph. 4. failed the elevated temp (42 C) after 3 weeks!! It turned brownish and could see mold forming with the naked eye. 

I followed GMP, everything was sanitized, the raw materials were from new lots. What might have happened here?

My emulsifier is Heliosoft + Siligel as co-emulsifier/gelling. There are no WS extracts or hydrosols. Oil phase 15%. There is inulin/fructose at 1% (microbe food?). I know Heliosoft can do up to 0.5% monovalent electrolytes, so Sodium Benzoate should theoretically be fine. 

I have made several iterations of this formula, always preserved with Germall and never had micro issues at 1 month elevated, or 6 mo. RT, even 14 months for a version without inulin.

I imagine the answer is some knock-out batches, but what would I even knock-out?

Any ideas? 
Thank you. 

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@MarkBroussard Thank you for all your help with this approach. Super helpful.

@Graillotion: Thank you for sharing your source. Funny, the bulk Caprylyl Glycol I found was also from MakingCosmetics

So you’ve used Hexanediol CG in emulsions? How did it affect the viscosity? 

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@MarkBroussard: I was actually just reading up some more on it.

I would be using it in an emulsion using Helisoft
(Glyceryl Behenate (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Lecithin) + Siligel (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Pullulan). It has a 15% oil phase, so I don’t want to to take a chance on messing up the viscosity/possibly destabilizing the emulsion. It only took me 30 + iterations to get the skinfeel of it just right. 

I used 3% Propanediol in its place, so I am hoping it will work. It’s been in the incubator for few weeks, and will send it to PET in a few more weeks.

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I can only find Caprylyl Glycol in bulk, but I did find a smaller size Caprylyl Glycol EHG (includes 27-33% ethylhexylglycerin). 

Since Euxyl PE9010 already contains EHG, what percentage should I include it at to replace it in this preservative system

1% PE9010 + 0.35% Sodium Benzoate +2% Pentylene Glycol + 0.2% Phytic acid + 0.3% Caprylyl glycol?

I was thinking 0.45%? That would replace the 0.3% and add an additional 0.14%  EHG (roughly) to the formula. Does that work?

Thank you
 

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@Graillotion Yup, 30-40-50  iterations…

I have only bought Brassica from Europe.

Initially from 

https://shop.skinchakra.eu/en/Cosmetic-Lab/Cosmetic-ingredients-A-Z (that’s also where I first got distarch phosphate), but she will no longer carry it b/c it’s not going to be palm-free anymore.

I got my last palm-free Brassica from Bayhouse Aromatics (UK).   

https://www.bayhousearomatics.com/brassica-alcohol-natural-palm-free.html

Getting stuff from Europe has some hefty shipping fees, so I usually order a bunch of different stuff, or I split the shipment w/ another formulator friend  in town. 

Both Aminosensyl and Emulsense emulsifiers contain it and I like them both.

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@Graillotion: Beautiful!  That’s just it. Thank you for sharing the fruits of your holy grail quest.

I’m also obsessed with texture. I create many many many versions of an emulsion to get the skin feel just right. The emulsifier also  plays a big role, and the gum (s). It’s a whole symphony.

I find that Brassica Alcohol gives a lovely texture in combination with a cast of emollients with different absorption rates. 

I learned about cascading emollients from SwiftCraftyMonkey (Susan Barclay Nichols)’s cosmetic blog. She has a whole 8-part series on this. Well worth the very modest monthly membership fee. I highly recommend her blog.  https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/

As for distarch phosphate, yes, lovely feel. Skinchakra has several formulations using this ingredient (on her old blog:  Swetti’s Beauty Blog           https://skinchakra.eu/blog/

Anyway, here is a helpful chart that illustrates this concept. 

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@Graillotion: Say wha^%##**tttt?!

Thank you for the recommendations.

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oooops, Typo!! I meant to type 1% Euxyl PE9010 not 1% Leucidal PE9010!

I am having trouble finding Phenethyl Alcohol. @Graillotion I saw one of your older posts re. the other synonyms it may hide under, but still didn’t find it (I haven’t tried all of them yet though). I’m in the US, where did you have luck finding it at times?

@PhilGeis: Thank you. Yes, EDTA is a good idea to prevent the pH drift. I found that Euxyl 9010 dissolves better in water if I first add it to a glycol. But maybe it would be ok without?

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@MarkBroussard: Many thanks. 

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@MarkBroussard: Thank you. i will try that. 

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@Graillotion THANK YOU! That is a life saver! I’m in the US, but I can order it.

What homogenizer do you use? Or stirrer?