[africanbug]

Cafe33 said:

my main objective to distill is for the hydrosol, not the essential oils. from this perspective, would you consider distilling your own hydrosol?

If it is something you would enjoy doing, than yes by all means. For an economic benefit, absolutely not. It would take you quite an investment in money and time before it could potentially be commercially viable.  

@Cafe33 oh absolutely not, I balked at having to do it lol. I’m glad I can put this consideration behind me and move on to sourcing for better hydrosols

thank you very much for your comments 

[africanbug]

Perry said:

If you are going to try to use the ingredients in products for commercial sale, I would not recommend making your own raw materials. You have to be able to prove your products are safe. That means you have to do safety testing. Your hydrosols are not an ingredient that has already been reviewed for safety by the CIR, so you may have to do a number of tests that a raw material supplier will have already done. 

Unless you’re in the business of selling hydrosols as raw materials, it doesn’t make sense to make your own. 

thank you @Perry, that certainly tips the scale in  my consideration..

btw, this site is a treasure, thank you

[africanbug]

thank you @Cafe33 

I’m pondering the option of distilling hydrosol to be used in products for commercial sale eventually, if it is a  viable option. certainly buying hydrosol from suppliers is much easier but the issue is contamination. most hydrosols don’t come preserved and I’ve had to throw away quite a bit of hydrosol because of that. I am worried that the hydrosols are already contaminated before they even show signs of it, from the shipping, handling and storage etc

my main objective to distill is for the hydrosol, not the essential oils. from this perspective, would you consider distilling your own hydrosol?

[africanbug]

Graillotion said:

……….And… New Directions Aromatics has the GCMS….right on the page for each EO….which was super helpful….when doing things like looking at the Nootkatone levels in three different grapefruit EO’s that they offer!  

I find prices on New Directions quite high.. i am a certified aromatherapist and have been toying with the idea of importing eos for a couple of years and now that I use so much more eo in my formulations, i find it a pain to find good eo at good prices with gcms provided, thus I have begun speaking to wholesalers and hopefully my pain will end soon ????

[africanbug]

Pharma said:

africanbug said:

have you tried aroma-zone in France…
…been trying for a month now…

Have now seen this address being recommended in several places though I’ve never ordered there. The typical French homepage kept me from ordering… Dunno but French homepages make my eyes bleed and my brain hum. But shipment outside EU sounds nice .

Trying by email will get you nowhere with French people. Give them a call (only in good French, obviously). Seriously, I lived in France for 7 years and did send hundreds of mails with a success rate in to below 1% range. Not that my French wouldn’t be good, I just don’t like calling people by phone… which I usually had to do to get matters solved fairly quickly (I consider 30 min calls to 2-3 different people fast compared to weeks of waiting LoL). An even faster way is to visit them though in most cases you won’t find opening hours online (vive la France).

haha don’t I know this too well I am married to a frenchman lol. shipment outside eu is great, free shipment when you  have to order kilos of glycerine, surfactants and hydrosols is even  greater ????
to be fair, france has progressed somewhat and nowadays emails are answered “most of the time”, except when they don’t want to address an issue. I wish aroma-zone has a number to call, would save me a lot of frustration and I would have lots of pleasure inflicting my bad French on them too ????

[africanbug]

@Graillotion yes got it from lotion crafter

[africanbug]

Graillotion said:

I actually use something to this effect (comes in a squalane base)….in my premium lotion… at a 1% inclusion rate…and even though it is strongly colored…as is the rosehip oil I also include at .5%…. After emulsion….the product is still white.

try the coq10 in its pure powder form orange in colour, I use 0.4% and my emulsion is a rich yellow, too yellow for my liking but any less would be useless as an additive..

[africanbug]

another option for yellow/orange is coenzyme q10 (ubiquinone), a good antioxidant..

[africanbug]

if you are looking for other essential oils to complement tea tree oil, blend of helichrysum italicum and German chamomile (matricaria recutita) is excellent for healing skin and both are anti-inflammatory 

2:1 dilution is too high though, esp if it is to treat a chronic issue in a umm sensitive area. the max dermal limit for tea tree is 15% and this is not for long term usage, i.e, you can use this dilution for a week to calm the inflammation, then reduce dilution to 1-2% for continuous use. Best to blend it with skin healing oils like helichrysum, chamomile, lavender. Add some antioxidant too to prevent tea tree from oxidising. 

[africanbug]

have you tried aroma-zone in France, they sell quite a good range of cosmetic ingredients too. if you order above a certain amount, shipping is free ( I don’t know about hawaii, it is free to Singapore by fedex), website is in French, only catch is it’s so hard to get GCMS from them..I’m still trying to get mine, been trying for a month now but some people from my FB group have successfully gotten them..

[africanbug]

thank you @Belassi . correct temperature meaning before the emulsions have cooled down completely and still in the relatively fluid state? 

if cream is filled when it has cooled down completely and lost its fluidity, do you think a shaker plate will do the job?

Thank you   

[africanbug]

letsalcido said:

0.5% HA would make the toner fairly thick I think. Maybe they’re using SLMW HA.

@letsalcido I use 0.5% of HA, 0.25% 50kDa and 0.25% 110kDa, it doesn’t change the consistency of the toner at all, have not used the higher MW HA though..

@esthetician922 I prefer alcohol free toner with only hydrosols no water (though if it is for commercial, blend of water and hydrosol might make more economic sense) some of the additives I use for toners are HA, niacinamide, plant and fruit extracts, glycerine @ 2% as any higher it feels sticky in warm and humid climate , eo and solubiliser and preservatives. 
Some of my favourite hydrosols for toners are geranium, thym linalol, peppermint, melissa

[africanbug]

@MarkBroussard thank you so much for the instructions, it works beautifully! I have a clear viscous product, until eo was added..

[africanbug]

@MarkBroussard

I don’t mean that they foam when washing with them, they foam when being formulated and stayed foamy, fluffy, cloud like. I’ve made body cleansing products with other surfactants like coco betaine, babassu betaine, decyl glucoside and coco glucoside and the products turn out as how you’ll expect shower cleanser to be, viscous but fluid.

However with the coco betaine/sci, the product self foams and as described above, it’s like a fluffy cloud, definitely not something you’ll expect a cleanser to look like in a bottle..

[africanbug]

Pharma said:

africanbug said:

thank you @Pharma, can I use the glycerine with SS for the d phase? sorry for my ignorance, I’ve not tried d phase emulsions before,,

You more or less INEVITABLY HAVE TO USE glycerol for d phase emulsification .

@Pharma thank you ☺️ 

[africanbug]

Yes, sorry it ended up going quite off topic there. Good luck with your formulation.

@helenhelen thank you for being understanding ❤️

[africanbug]

helenhelen said:

MarkBroussard said:

@helenhelen

It has to do with the formation of the packing structures of the liquid crystals … it’s a different organization if you add the LC Emulsifier first to water as opposed to adding the LC Emulsifier first to oil.  You get a different skin sensorial.

Thank you. I’m curious to buy it and try it out both ways to see the difference.

Do you think Olivem 900 (sorbitan olivate on its own) should also be added first to water when using as a co emulsifier? It’s waxy flakes and the common instructions are to add it to the oil phase first. It is apparently dispersible in water though. I have some coming in the mail.

@helenhelen
hi, it is interesting to learn new things but maybe you can start another discussion separately as it is not very fair to divert my post to your end?

[africanbug]

@ggpetrov I like olivem too, I find it makes stable and elegant emulsions, only setback is it can’t be cold processed. I was trying out SS because I want a cold process emulsion to incorporate heat sensitive oils..

[africanbug]

MarkBroussard said:

@Africanbug:

When you cold process Sucrose Stearate you’re going to introduce lots of air into the emulsion if you do not first add the Xanthan Gum/Glycerin slurry.  So, change your procedure to first add Xanthan/Glycerin to water stirring to hydrate the Xanthan.  Then add your oils phase and homogenize.

In your particular formula … you should drop the Coconut Oil to 10% -12% … 20% is quite high imho.  You might also try increasing the Xanthan Gum to 0.6% or so.  I normally add Glyceryl Oleate as a co-emulsifier for Sucrose Stearate for cold process formulas.

I’m assuming you are first heating the Coconut Oil to melt to liquid or are you using a liquid Coconut Oil … Or, are you perhaps add the semi-solid Coconut Oil without first heating?

@MarkBroussard. I did try adding the gum/glycerine to water prior to adding oil phase for emulsification but I thought the emulsion that resulted was rather “fluffy” which prompted me to add the gum after emulsification. I will try your suggestion again. 

thank you very much for all your suggestions, that gives me something new to work with. i left the coconut oil to stand at room temperature until it is completely liquid..

[africanbug]

ggpetrov said:

 Also as far as I know SS behaves better if it is pre-dissolved in water and left to rest for an hour or two before emulsification.

@g@ggpetrov I tried that too but it doesn’t improve anything and I find emulsions are more homogeneous with SS added to oil phase. thank you for helping though ☺️

[africanbug]

Pharma said:

Don’t whisk and use Bamix fully immersed so there’s no air getting sucked into your emulsion.

Or try d phase emulsion.

thank you @Pharma, can I use the glycerine with SS for the d phase? sorry for my ignorance, I’ve not tried d phase emulsions before,,

[africanbug]

Perhaps foam cleanser is not suitable for your skin. You might want to try a different kind of cleanser i.e cream cleanser, gel cleanser or micellar water

[africanbug]

@letsalcido
thank you so much, it makes the water murkier but at least now my speculation is confirmed  

[africanbug]

@EVchem
 it was a trial formulation so there was no active ingredients, Just a basic structure of water phase and oil phase emulsion. I use lactic acid and l-arginine.

It does however make me wonder if there were pH sensitive ingredients, would they be compromised, generally speaking

[africanbug]

sorry your question is not very clear. do you mean you would like to have a cleanser that is moisturising at the same time? how about a cream cleanser? still, it won’t be moisturising, it can be gentler though