[Abdullah]

No one commented because maybe no one has experience with it. 

I dont know about this ingredient but i am using polyglyceryl-4 laurate which is cold process with petrolatum and glyceryl stearate and it makes production of large batches (200kg) very easy. 

[Abdullah]

I think glyceryl stearate also rules the world of cosmetic.
Reason maybe because GMS and fatty alcohol are the least expensive and easiest to work surfactants to make LGN products. 

Behenyl is more expensive.

[Abdullah]

What i don’t know is if they were talking about weight percentage or molecular weight percentage?

[Abdullah]

BrendaM said:

Hello
I discovered an article ulprospector highlighting the effect of LGNs in hair conditioners.( said article being https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/8959/pcc-hair-conditioner-formulations/). 
In the comment section, someone asked what would be the optimum ratio of low HLB vs high HLB to formulate a daily, economical conditioner. To which the author replied, Typically 1-1.5% Quat (high HLB) and 3-5% Cetearyl alcohol (low HLB) or a ratio of around 25-30%.
Based on the above, what would be the same ratios for: 
a daily leave-in conditioner
a detangler
a deep treatment

 I’m also struggling with this part under factors affecting LGN performance
” Ratio of high HLB to total surfactant has a significant impact on viscosity and the conditioning properties. For optimum conditioning, this ratio should be ~30%.”
Is it possible for someone to elaborate with an example?

Suppose you have 5% total surfactant (BTMS+fatty alcohol). 30% of it should be BTMS which equals 1.5% in formula.
So 1.5% BTMS and 3.5% fatty alcohol. 

[Abdullah]

@ketchito thanks
Got this point.

Two more questions.

1. If EGDS doesn’t function properly as surfactant in cleansing product, will it deposit on skin with help of cationic surfactant and function as refatting and moisturizing ingredient or it is just for aesthetic purpose?

2. If GMO can functions is surfactant or co surfactant in cleanser product, will it function as surfactant and remove oils from our hair or skin or it will deposit with help of cationic guar and function as refatting and moisturizing ingredient?

[Abdullah]

Priya said:

pH - 5.93

This is a really bad pH for bacteria too specially when you don’t have chelating agent

[Abdullah]

Off course you have experience and make good product and it may be more effective and less expensive than most of market products. 

In my opinion top products are made by top chemists in the industry.

[Abdullah]

Unfortunately i don’t have experience with oatmeal. 

If you want to make a product that is more effective than top products in the market, you cant make it. 
Your goal should be first how to make an emulsion and then how to provide a benefit from it. 

Phenoxyethanol+ IPBC+ EDTA + pH 4-4.5
 or phenoxyethanol+ parabens +EDTA+ pH 4-4.5

[Abdullah]

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah

In order for SA to be effecive in an acne product, the SA needs to actually penetrate into the hair follicle.  That simply is highly unlikely to happen in a cleanser.

Got it
Thanks

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

@amitvedakar - I doubt it. The surfactants are emulsifying oils so most of the salicylic acid will be tied up in a micelle & not in contact with skin. 

Can’t polymer help salicylic acid deposition the same way it does help silicone deposition?

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

Probably not but you could ask some other supplier what theirs is. It wouldn’t be a bad guess to assume they are about the same. Although it could be easily wrong

Thanks 

I wanted to purchase it from local suppliers who are resellers but they don’t know about those things. 
I thought maybe from melting point or something else i van guess it more correctly. 

[Abdullah]

What is your pH? 

[Abdullah]

As Mr PhilGeis said, have you tested microbial contamination? 

Your preservative looks weak against fungi for me. Mr PhilGeis know better about it. 

If they are formed in one day after production it may be oxidation of iron or something else in product, not contamination.

You can dissolve 0.3% EDTA in water and then add to a small amount of this batch and see if it improves it. Or make a new sample batch with 0.2% EDTA and see if it has this discoloration.

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Since salicylic acid is an acid, you need to consider its pKa. If your pH is below SA’s pKa, then SA will be present as an acid (protonated), but if the pH is above SA’s pKa, then  it will exist in its unprotonated form, that is, hydronium ions (positive) and salicylate ions (anionic), both swimming around the solution. That works for all acids.

Thanks 

Is this rule only for salicylic acid or for everything? 

For example: lactic acid and glycolic acid at pH 5, will it also be mostly in anionic form?

[Abdullah]

Write your formula.

Also, does it appear when the product is in production tank or after you have transfer it to final package?

[Abdullah]

Pattsi said:

Flow chart summary.

https://cdsco.gov.in/opencms/export/sites/CDSCO_WEB/Pdf-documents/New-Drugs/Process/NDD_APPL_Organogram.pdf

You can contact your local state authority if your formula requires clinical trial or not. 

Thanks

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis @MarkBroussard got it

Thanks a lot 

[Abdullah]

And is there any general rule to know which ingredient is anionic, cationic or non-ionic? 

I did search a lot about salicylic acid charge in Google but couldn’t find any information about it.

[Abdullah]

Thanks @ketchito 

I didn’t know salicylic acid was anionic. 

These two ingredients are both effective for acne so i wanted to use both of them in a single product to make it supper effect  .

The goal is to sell the product as a simple leave on liquid solution to minimize the cost. 

Are you suggesting an anionic surfactant to make the product a cleanser or there is another reason for using that? 

[Abdullah]

Rockstargirl said:

Abdullah said:

Rockstargirl said:

The ingredients and % determine if is a drug or a cosmetic. Soap is a cosmetic. So if they make a “cures acne” claim - that is incorrect for a cosmetic. “Helps the appearance of acne” may be more suitable. The claim itself does not make it a drug. The man power of health authorities is not great and lots of this falls under the radar. However the fines levied when caught are no joke. It’s not worth the risk. Research what claims are allowed and the wording before marketing. I believe BP and Sal acid may make acne claims however “ cure” is not a word I would use. 

Thanks 

One particular question. 
Are OTC products controled by regulations to see if it realy do what it claims?

Well.. some is already established (spf filters etc) But you should do testing to back up your claims. The responsibility is of those making the claim.  

My point was also this. 

If salicylic acid from cleanser is useless, how do all these salicylic acid OTC acne cleansers back up their claims? 

[Abdullah]

MarkBroussard said:

@Abdullah

People with acne will normally use a suite of products, including leave-on products which is where they get the benefit, from the leave-on products, not the cleansers.  But, adding SA to a cleanser certainly will not hurt, it just won’t do very much in terms of effectiveness in delivering an active against acne.

That makes sense
Thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Assume you’re looking at the skin protectant monograph.
What is your intent for the glycerine use?

This was as an example because i couldn’t tell you properly what i wanted to know about salicylic acid in cleansing product.

I am looking at acne monograph.
2% salicylic acid is an OTC active for ance. 
Now if it is in a cleansing product, it doesn’t do any benefit for ance vs simple cleansers. So how are all OTC salicylic acid cleansers which doesn’t do anything for ance being allowed to claim so?

Salicylic acid for ance from cleanser is as useless as glycerin for skin protection from a cleanser. Isn’t it? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis thanks.

The particular thing i want to know is this. 

For example: 40% glycerin is an OTC active ingredient. you can use 40% glycerin in a lotion, claim for skin protection and register the product as OTC. 

Now if you use 40% glycerin in a cleanser, can you register it as OTC and claim skin protection from it? 

[Abdullah]

ozgirl said:

I remember reading somewhere that the issue is that young children already have potentially high salicylate exposure due to teething gels and thus adding an extra exposure may make it unsafe.

The European Cosmetics regulations are based on science so I personally wouldn’t risk it when you have an alternative that is safe and works.

Salicylic Acid is also restricted under ASEAN Cosmetic regulations and is not to be used in products for children under 3 (except shampoo).

Thanks

[Abdullah]

Rockstargirl said:

The ingredients and % determine if is a drug or a cosmetic. Soap is a cosmetic. So if they make a “cures acne” claim - that is incorrect for a cosmetic. “Helps the appearance of acne” may be more suitable. The claim itself does not make it a drug. The man power of health authorities is not great and lots of this falls under the radar. However the fines levied when caught are no joke. It’s not worth the risk. Research what claims are allowed and the wording before marketing. I believe BP and Sal acid may make acne claims however “ cure” is not a word I would use. 

Thanks 

One particular question. 
Are OTC products controled by regulations to see if it realy do what it claims?